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Thread: NY State Firearms advice

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by EPF View Post
    I found a suitable used PC carbine and I’m negotiating to purchase and have it shipped to an FFL near him.

    Thanks to all for the suggestions
    The PC Carbine ticks all the boxes in terms of legality, presuming it does not have a threaded barrel, and hasn't been re-chassis'd into a pistol grip. I've no idea what the climate is like down there in terms of travelling around with one. No permit is required to own or possess the rifle-configured PC carbine, and it has no registration requirement. Your FIL may have a difficult time sourcing ammunition (even after current events are concluded), as many major retailers require a pistol permit to purchase "pistol" ammunition. On the rare times I've purchased ammo at such retailers, I've been successful in more or less bullying my way into the sale--it's not legally-required, only store policy. There are also online retailers that will happily ship to NYS. You can PM me if you'd like to know of one. Again, there's nothing legally preventing internet sales, the state has just threatened retailers.

    The truth of the matter is, the state is very sharply divided by region in terms of how the law is actually applied. LI is generally regarded as being not quite as bad as NYC, but clearly not as friendly as the upstate (north of, say, I-90) counties. Technically-speaking, we're a shall-issue state, although many counties place "judicial restrictions" on pistol permits to restrict concealed carry (how legal and binding such restrictions are is debated), and still others function as may-issue in practice.

    Depending on which LI county we're talking about, getting a handgun permit will likely involve an interview with county law enforcement, with varying amounts of "friendliness". Acquiring a CCW, again depending on the county, will range from difficult to never-gonna-happen.

  2. #12
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    You can't travel with a carbine loaded! Separate guns and ammo, if you please. As far as buying ammo, I've had no problem in WNY buying pistol ammo at the Cabela's, LGS and having it shipped to me.

    I bought my Ruger explicitly NY compliant without a threaded barrel. Not having a pistol grip has saved many lives, as proven by intensive research (hahaha!).

  3. #13
    Member rkittine's Avatar
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    Where on Long Island? Since you said close to New York City, do you mean Nassau County or is he possibly in Brooklyn or Queens, which is New York City, just not Manhattan. Anywhere in New York City (All 5 boroughs) you need a permit for even a long gun. The permitting office is the Firearms Control Board in Queens.

    In Nassau it will take about 5-7 months now to get a pistol permit, but nothing but a driver's license is necessary for a long gun that is NYS compatible under the safe act. Some AR style rifles are OK. You are allowed 1 point if you are not a police officer. So you can get one with a Pinned 10 Round Magazine, or with a removeable magazine, but a straight butt stock with no pistol grip, but you can not have a vertical forend, or the barrel even threaded for a compensator or suppressor. If it is for home protection and not going to be a handgun, why not a shotgun. More practical in close courters.

    Bob

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkittine View Post
    Where on Long Island? Since you said close to New York City, do you mean Nassau County or is he possibly in Brooklyn or Queens, which is New York City, just not Manhattan. Anywhere in New York City (All 5 boroughs) you need a permit for even a long gun. The permitting office is the Firearms Control Board in Queens.

    In Nassau it will take about 5-7 months now to get a pistol permit, but nothing but a driver's license is necessary for a long gun that is NYS compatible under the safe act. Some AR style rifles are OK. You are allowed 1 point if you are not a police officer. So you can get one with a Pinned 10 Round Magazine, or with a removeable magazine, but a straight butt stock with no pistol grip, but you can not have a vertical forend, or the barrel even threaded for a compensator or suppressor. If it is for home protection and not going to be a handgun, why not a shotgun. More practical in close courters.

    Bob
    What is “more practical” about a shotgun in close quarters?

    In terms of handling and tactics a long gun is a long gun.

    A shotgun may hit a bit harder in terms of terminal ballistics, however, that depends on ammunition choice and cones at a recoil and capacity penalty. The PC carbine’s manual of arms and cycle of operation is much more similar to the firearms a Vietnam vet would be familiar with (1911, M14,M16) than that of a even a semi auto shotgun, much less a pump.

  5. #15
    Member rkittine's Avatar
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    From what the original poster said, I get the impression Vietnam Vet or not, he probably has not shot anyone in a long time if ever (I never shot anyone in Vietnam, though had plenty of guns). Living close to New York City, I would bet that he lives on a small piece of property.

    So, if you haven't pointed a gun at someone, shot at them and hit them in a long time, a scatter gun with large shot or buck shot, might be a better option and a pump has less possible problems than an auto. There are probably more riot type shotguns bought for personal defense (in reality) than AR type rifles, though I am sure there are probably as many rifles out there, though being used for something else, like shooting off hundreds of rounds at the Sand Pits in Calverton, LI.

    A short shotgun will swing well in confined quarters. Personally my, in home, defense weapons are all pistols though I own lots of rifles and lots of shotguns.

    Then take the proximity to others possibly in the house as well as very close neighbors. I load Hollow Based Wadcutters upside down over a heavy charge. They will expand really well and have great impact, but usually will not go through a wall and hit someone in the next room, the same for many shotgun loads.

    A bolt gun is great if you are a perfect shot and only need to fire once. Not likely.

    Bob

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkittine View Post
    From what the original poster said, I get the impression Vietnam Vet or not, he probably has not shot anyone in a long time if ever (I never shot anyone in Vietnam, though had plenty of guns). Living close to New York City, I would bet that he lives on a small piece of property.

    So, if you haven't pointed a gun at someone, shot at them and hit them in a long time, a scatter gun with large shot or buck shot, might be a better option and a pump has less possible problems than an auto. There are probably more riot type shotguns bought for personal defense (in reality) than AR type rifles, though I am sure there are probably as many rifles out there, though being used for something else, like shooting off hundreds of rounds at the Sand Pits in Calverton, LI.

    A short shotgun will swing well in confined quarters. Personally my, in home, defense weapons are all pistols though I own lots of rifles and lots of shotguns.

    Then take the proximity to others possibly in the house as well as very close neighbors. I load Hollow Based Wadcutters upside down over a heavy charge. They will expand really well and have great impact, but usually will not go through a wall and hit someone in the next room, the same for many shotgun loads.

    A bolt gun is great if you are a perfect shot and only need to fire once. Not likely.

    Bob
    A 3” or 4” medium sized revolver and a good flashlight is the optimal solution to the OPs problem but NY State’s unconstitutional firearms laws preclude a handgun in this case.

    The OP is going with a ban state version of the 9mm Ruger PCC.

    A 16” Ruger PCC is shorter than a pump or semi auto shotgun. and will swing just as well.

    Modern pistol ammo and proper defensive shotgun ammo are on par in terms of penetrating walls. Birdshot is not appropriate for anti personnel use nor is gun store lore a substitute for terminal ballistics data.

    Regardless, of ammo choice, at indoor distances you must aim with a shotgun the same as with a carbine. The shot at 7 yards can be covered by your fist. 21 feet is a long shot inside most houses.

    Based on 25 years dealing with large numbers of non-gun people forced into occasional (quarterly) use of pump shotguns they are more complicated and have significantly more problems (malfunctions, short stroking and NDs) than magazine fed semi auto pistols and rifles.

    Much of the myth of the pump shotgun is based on familiarity with pump guns as hunting and pest control tools in a rural culture which no longer exists for the majority of Americans. Unless you grew up running a pump gun regularly for hunting or clays they are an inferior option for casual users who will treat a gun like the expired fire extinguisher in their kitchen.

    A good quality semi auto shotgun eliminates the short stroke issue but is still sub optimal for a non dedicated user who isn’t going to put in any work with it.

    Re: the necessity of aiming with shotguns



    Re: Shotgun load penetration on drywall with #8, #4, 00 and slugs.

    Last edited by HCM; 08-06-2020 at 12:53 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkittine View Post
    From what the original poster said, I get the impression Vietnam Vet or not, he probably has not shot anyone in a long time if ever (I never shot anyone in Vietnam, though had plenty of guns). Living close to New York City, I would bet that he lives on a small piece of property.

    So, if you haven't pointed a gun at someone, shot at them and hit them in a long time, a scatter gun with large shot or buck shot, might be a better option and a pump has less possible problems than an auto. There are probably more riot type shotguns bought for personal defense (in reality) than AR type rifles, though I am sure there are probably as many rifles out there, though being used for something else, like shooting off hundreds of rounds at the Sand Pits in Calverton, LI.

    A short shotgun will swing well in confined quarters. Personally my, in home, defense weapons are all pistols though I own lots of rifles and lots of shotguns.

    Then take the proximity to others possibly in the house as well as very close neighbors. I load Hollow Based Wadcutters upside down over a heavy charge. They will expand really well and have great impact, but usually will not go through a wall and hit someone in the next room, the same for many shotgun loads.

    A bolt gun is great if you are a perfect shot and only need to fire once. Not likely.

    Bob
    Speaking as an NCO that's instructed Soldiers how to clear/load/handle and operate the issued Mossberg 590's, I would strongly disagree with the statement that a pump has fewer possible problems. Running a pump 12 ga *well* is an art form much like running J-frame and similar compact revolvers. The basics seem simple, but when marksmanship is required under speed and duress, it all goes to shit at 150mph. In the case of a pump action, short stroking is a problem, loading is a problem, forcing Soldiers to actually get a sight picture is a problem, etc.

    I would agree with all the above posters that a PCC is the best option if it's possible, by virtue of low recoil and ease of use. Modern defensive pistol ammo is vastly better than hardball of old, and the overwhelming majority of 00 buck or similar defensive shotgun loads are at very significant risk for overpenetration concerns, with the possible exception of thoughtful custom handloads such as your own. The kick-ass terminal effect of a shotgun simply isn't worth the additional recoil, operation SNAFU risks, or overpenetration risk.

    That said, I believe you'd be right in saying that more shotguns exist overall than AR's in private hands, but that's only by virtue of the 50+ year head start pump shotguns have enjoyed. AR's (even the weird looking variants for ban states) have been outselling shotguns by orders of magnitude for quite some time.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Speaking as an NCO that's instructed Soldiers how to clear/load/handle and operate the issued Mossberg 590's, I would strongly disagree with the statement that a pump has fewer possible problems. Running a pump 12 ga *well* is an art form much like running J-frame and similar compact revolvers. The basics seem simple, but when marksmanship is required under speed and duress, it all goes to shit at 150mph. In the case of a pump action, short stroking is a problem, loading is a problem, forcing Soldiers to actually get a sight picture is a problem, etc.

    I would agree with all the above posters that a PCC is the best option if it's possible, by virtue of low recoil and ease of use. Modern defensive pistol ammo is vastly better than hardball of old, and the overwhelming majority of 00 buck or similar defensive shotgun loads are at very significant risk for overpenetration concerns, with the possible exception of thoughtful custom handloads such as your own. The kick-ass terminal effect of a shotgun simply isn't worth the additional recoil, operation SNAFU risks, or overpenetration risk.

    That said, I believe you'd be right in saying that more shotguns exist overall than AR's in private hands, but that's only by virtue of the 50+ year head start pump shotguns have enjoyed. AR's (even the weird looking variants for ban states) have been outselling shotguns by orders of magnitude for quite some time.
    IME in addition to short stroking, non dedicated users have trouble with the idea that the round can be in three places during the cycle of operation (magazine, lifter, chamber) in a pump or conventional semi auto shotgun vs two places (magazine, chamber) in most pistols and semi auto carbines.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    IME in addition to short stroking, non dedicated users have trouble with the idea that the round can be in three places during the cycle of operation (magazine, lifter, chamber) in a pump or conventional semi auto shotgun vs two places (magazine, chamber) in most pistols and semi auto carbines.
    Absolutely. I had an ND occur with a Mossberg because of that. The Soldier attempted to clear the weapon, cycling the action while inexplicably looking at the loading port instead of into the ejection port. Saw the last round leave the magazine and expose the follower. Then he looked in the chamber and saw an empty chamber, somehow missing the round on the lifter. So he thought the weapon was clear.
    Slid the action closed in the clearing barrel and went to dry fire it - but a loud noise happened.

    Another problem I've seen is with Soldiers that treat the pump action like a volume knob or delicate sliding scale where they seem to hunt/wait/try to observe the action doing it's thing, instead of decisively operating the pump fully rearward until it stops travel, then decisively pressing it forward into battery. I try to explain it as a digital switch that's either all the way back or all the way forward and never, ever, ever anything in between. I believe that kind of half ass action led to the ND above.

  10. #20
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    How did NY turn into the shotgun debate? I agree with the folks who argue that the pump is not the intuitive man stopper of the age. Having taken a couple of shotgun classes (Tom Given's for one - great class) and some competition, I decided my go to long arm in NY in my house is my Ruger 9mm or Mini-14. The former is preferred. Now if the black bear that is wandering around the neighborhood comes to the door, the shotgun with slugs might be a choice. Not really worried about that though.

    I'm still debating buying one of those weird compliant ARs. I'll wait till the plague panic abides a bit.

    BTW, have folks seen that big mag release gadget to add to the Ruger. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...e-mag-release/

    Thoughts on that? I should ask elsewhere I suppose.

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