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Thread: Sight shooting and point shooting groupings

  1. #11
    Site Supporter TDA's Avatar
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    It’s kind of an interesting question how you’d model the hit probability for gaming purposes though, and I’d be interested in how people have done it, and why. I think it’s got to be very tempting to just say “unsighted fire has a 30% chance to hit inside 25 yards” in my game, because I said so. I’m kind of impressed at the idea, and a bit sorry that I don’t have that kind of data to share.

  2. #12
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    A buddy designed an RPG and my interaction with his process happened at about the same time I went to Gunsite...

    The way we settled it was that persons with "mastery" of the weapon in question had a minor (like 10-20%) penalty to hit unsighted within the 'close' ranges of the weapon (didn't matter what weapon, because it doesn't matter what weapon). A person without mastery or using the weapon at its 'medium' ranges had a 10% chance /to/ hit before other penalties. A person unfamiliar with the weapon or using the weapon at 'long' ranges had a 1% chance to hit (so you're saying there's a chance).

  3. #13
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    This is a reasonable question. Hwansik Kim defines 3 types of confirmation for shooting:
    1. Index shooting, no vision confirmation
    2. Flash sight picture and/or sight in motion
    3. Stable sight picture

    Here’s a vidcap from a recent match. I’m moving pretty quickly through this target array, 5 open targets about 2-3 yds away, using Confirmation 1. The holes you can see in the two targets are both doubles (2 shots, one hole). With practice, a good index can produce fairly tight groups.

    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  4. #14
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    With my micro carry pistol (P365) I can shoot about an 8" 5-shot group from the hip at about 5 yards and about an 8" group using the sights at 25 yards. When everything goes perfectly I can sometimes get a ~6" group at either distance, but I can't count on that happening on demand. There aren't too many situations where I'd find point shooting useful so I don't practice it much...

    For reference I'm well above average compared to the typical gun owner, but I'm near the bottom when it comes to competition shooters.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    There was a guy here a couple of years ago trying to sell point shooting as a viable option.

    Got his ass handed to him if I remember correctly.


    Okie John
    azkickr was his username. At one time he was worshiped over at Defensive Carry as an instructor. His class names were like "Death Shot" or "Kill Shot" or something equally as cringy.

  6. #16
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDA View Post
    It’s kind of an interesting question how you’d model the hit probability for gaming purposes though, and I’d be interested in how people have done it, and why. I think it’s got to be very tempting to just say “unsighted fire has a 30% chance to hit inside 25 yards” in my game, because I said so. I’m kind of impressed at the idea, and a bit sorry that I don’t have that kind of data to share.
    I recall in one class we practiced firing from a 'pectoral index'. Not quite a speed rock, but not too far from it. The point was to know when you could get away with it (extremely close ranges) and when you couldn't (the majority of the time). We actually tried it out to 25 yds I believe. The point wasn't to show what you could do, but rather what you probably won't.

  7. #17
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    If you look back at the real Old West shooters like Hickok, Erp, and up to Frank Hamer, you find they all advocated the use of sighted fire.

    Things haven't changed since. Modern tech (high viz sights, RDS, et al) means you get get your sights on target faster.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakkach View Post
    Hello
    Couldn't find a relevant section, so I'm posting here.
    I've been searching for angular measurements of point shooting and sight shooting groups and encountered a suprising lack of data. I'm sincerely asking you to post your measurements of shot group diameter and target distance for both point shooting and sight shooting. Please also include the name of the weapon and whether "action shooting" was incorporated into training (quick draw from the holster and so on). I will use this information to design a bit more realistic tabletop RPG mechanics, but I also hope that this thread would become an easy find to compare own results.
    Gladly welcome any help and cheers!
    “Point shooting” is a very broad, imprecise term.

    You will not find much support for most kinds of unsighted shooting, in this forum.

    Most “hip shooting” falls apart, when one’s target is anything other than a life-sized target, standing nicely squared, directly to one’s front. It works best on good light, when one can see the holes appearing in the paper. If one has plenty of ammo to burn, it can be a fun way to punch holes in paper.

    I did some amount of hip shooting, for 33 years, because my mandated annual qual started with either twelve or ten shots, at two yards, with a mandate that my forearm be in contact with my belt or duty holster. This had little to no street relevance, of course, because human opponents do not act like stationary paper targets.

    Notably, in the real world, using the “hip shooting” position for weapon-retention purposes is really just running a gun give-away program. There is merit in shooting from a “High #2” position, when an opponent is within touching distance, as one can seriously defend against a committed gun-grab.

    RPG = Rocket-Propelled Grenade, in my book.

    The last time I played a computer game, it was something like “pack man.” I did not like it, so did not do it again. That was about a thousand years ago.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  9. #19
    Site Supporter TDA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    “Point shooting” is a very broad, imprecise term.

    You will not find much support for most kinds of unsighted shooting, in this forum.

    Most “hip shooting” falls apart, when one’s target is anything other than a life-sized target, standing nicely squared, directly to one’s front. It works best on good light, when one can see the holes appearing in the paper. If one has plenty of ammo to burn, it can be a fun way to punch holes in paper.

    I did some amount of hip shooting, for 33 years, because my mandated annual qual started with either twelve or ten shots, at two yards, with a mandate that my forearm be in contact with my belt or duty holster. This had little to no street relevance, of course, because human opponents do not act like stationary paper targets.
    Exactly- we as a community have run this experiment a lot, and we know what works, but we don’t have the math handy. All the science except for the science-y part. I would love to know what the group sizes were back when all the PDs were doing this. I have a kind of vague intuition that a big data set like that would tell us cool stuff. Maybe not, too, but still, I’m intrigued.

  10. #20

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