Sight shooting and point shooting groupings

[Nakkach]

Hello
Couldn't find a relevant section, so I'm posting here.
I've been searching for angular measurements of point shooting and sight shooting groups and encountered a suprising lack of data. I'm sincerely asking you to post your measurements of shot group diameter and target distance for both point shooting and sight shooting. Please also include the name of the weapon and whether "action shooting" was incorporated into training (quick draw from the holster and so on). I will use this information to design a bit more realistic tabletop RPG mechanics, but I also hope that this thread would become an easy find to compare own results.
Gladly welcome any help and cheers!

[Robinson]

This isn't really a "point shooting" type of forum, even when RPGs are being used.

[RJ]

You’ll find a wealth of information on 25 yard sighted fire here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-yds-revisited

Many p-f shooters (not me) can put ten rounds inside an NRA B-8 bulls eye black area (5.5”). So, as a rule of thumb, you could start with the arc tan of (5.5” / 25 yards).

I don’t believe you’ll see a lot of, if any, proponents of ‘point shooting’, on this forum, however.

[okie john]

There was a guy here a couple of years ago trying to sell point shooting as a viable option.

Got his ass handed to him if I remember correctly.


Okie John

[Malamute]

There was a guy here a couple of years ago trying to sell point shooting as a viable option.

Got his ass handed to him if I remember correctly.


Okie John

One of the comments in that discussion sticks in my mind. Someone was at a conference with some of his disciples, few were interested in hearing it. He was asked to shoot side by side with the sighted shooters, nobody in the point shoot camp took them up on it. Those that had seen the unsighted shooters in action said "His guys cant hit shit".

There are some that can do it, we have a few examples in history and currently, but its rare to be very good at it beyond arms reach distance. The commonly heard cry of "didnt have time to aim" makes me think you dont have time to miss.

[JohnO]

First off, I'm sorry please explain what RPG stands for.

Hello
Couldn't find a relevant section, so I'm posting here.
I've been searching for angular measurements of point shooting and sight shooting groups and encountered a suprising lack of data. I'm sincerely asking you to post your measurements of shot group diameter and target distance for both point shooting and sight shooting.

I really do not know anyone who point shoots at any reasonable distance. A skilled practitioner can draw and hit a small target while very close to the target without verifying a sight picture because they have developed a skill. A skill learned over time from repetitive aimed fire. A skilled shooter knows that at distance X seeing their front sight anywhere in the rear notch is good enough. They can accept the imparted angular deviation and still make the shot. As they perfect their presentation, learn what level of sight alignment is required, and what they consistently achieve they could get away with point shooting at bad breath distances. Conversely the skilled shooter knows at what distance the sight alignment needs to be refined to make the shot. That shooter is not likely to just stick the gun out there and hope for the best.

Some will argue that the distance from which point shooting can be utilized can increased with practice/skill. Those who have acquired the ability to point shoot from any respectable distance have learned a circus trick. A trick that can only be learned by constant and continual practice and 10's of thousands of rounds. We are not talking about a viable tactic that can or should be used on anything but an inanimate object under controlled conditions.

Regarding data. I don't see any reason why data would exist. Aimed fire and point shooting are not comparable they are apples & oranges.

[rjohnson4405]

Tabletop RPG is a role playing game, the most famous example being Dungeons and Dragons.

He's either writing rules or character "abilities" and trying to make them "real world" accurate is my guess.

[Duelist]

RPG also stands for Rocket Propelled Grenade, as in “close only counts in horseshoes, grenades, and nuclear weapons”.

I might not be clear on what his usage is.

[HCM]

Hello
Couldn't find a relevant section, so I'm posting here.
I've been searching for angular measurements of point shooting and sight shooting groups and encountered a suprising lack of data. I'm sincerely asking you to post your measurements of shot group diameter and target distance for both point shooting and sight shooting. Please also include the name of the weapon and whether "action shooting" was incorporated into training (quick draw from the holster and so on). I will use this information to design a bit more realistic tabletop RPG mechanics, but I also hope that this thread would become an easy find to compare own results.
Gladly welcome any help and cheers!

As noted this isn't really a point shooting type of place as it is inefficient and unreliable.

There are also various defintions of what constitutes "point shooting"

"classical" point shooting i.e. shooting from below eye level as in bad westerns, is based on body index and can work ok at close range if both the target and the shooter are not moving. However, that is unrealistic. In real life people move in fights, especially gunfights. When one or both parties start moving it fails miserably.

"Modern" point shooting, as outlined in the 1920s era book "Shooting to Live" (and others) and practiced in some places through the 1960s or 70s involves bringing the gun up to eye level and is really just a crude form of aimed fire, they are just aiming with the whole gun vs the sights. Use of this method was often driven by two factors: older guns having tiny sights that were of limited usefulness and the need to quicklyand / or cheaply train large numbers of people to a minimal standard of handgun proficiency. Examples would be the OSS in WW II, the Israelis in the first few decades of their existence etc.


If you look at Col. Boyds OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) cycle, you can see fights as a race between two competing time or OODA cycles. Trained sighted fire is the quickest and most efficient way to get hits on your opponent and end / win a fight. Misses have two big drawbacks: they make you re-start your OODA loop (waste time) giving your opponent an advantage and there really is no such thing as a "miss" since every round fired eventually hits something. The latter may or may not be significant depending on circumstances.

If you are trying to make the mechanics of your game more realistic, I would start with studying fighting via things like Col. Boyds work before getting into the mechanics of shooting, which is just a sub type of fighting.

[BJXDS]

My point and sight shooting groups are the same. The method I use is, point the gun at target then as a wise man said I use those little bumpy things on my gun, squeal height squeal light and see what I need to see to get the hits, shooting quickly or carefully or precisely depending on the target size and distance.