Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

[SoCalDep]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

I think it depends on a lot of factors to include the size of the agency and how much training, logistical support, and accountability can be established. Further, I'm aware of several law enforcement agencies that have had issues with operating conditions. This includes things like condensational fogging due to high humidity (Miami area) or extreme temperature shifts.

I was contacted by an Alaska State Trooper stationed in Fairbanks who was concerned about how the optic will perform going from -40 degree outside temperatures into a heated house on a domestic violence call. I can address part of those concerns, as I've simulated some extreme environments and temperature shifts to see what various pistol optics will do. Here in SoCal, I don't have the equipment to test an optic at -40 degrees. Duracell lists the minimum operating temperature of their 2032 batteries at -4 degrees fareinheit so things like how long the internal components of the optic will take to acclimate to the ambient temperature, or to a temperature that might affect operation are questions I can't answer. I've done experiments involving open and concealed carry and how carrying close to the body can affect optic performance in temperature shifts but I don't know how they (cops in extreme cold) carry their pistols, nor have I the ability to put myself in that environment to see what happens.

The more different people use optics the more we will learn. That may present perfrormance demands that drive development of better optics (enclosed emitters are rad for dealing with humidity and temperature issues) and general technology.

As much as we've gotten better and more reliable optics, and better and more reliable mounting methods, there is a failure rate for both, and I'm not sure we've reached the acceptable failure rate for many large departments that simply can't or won't hold their people accountable for ensuring their equipment is in proper condition and their skills and training have prepared them for the admittedly unlikely event a failure occurs.

So in short - No. I don't think pistol-optics are ready to take over in the same ubiquitous way that semi-auto pistols have replaced revolvers or rifle optics have largely replaced iron sights, but I think that day is coming, and the more agencies that start programs and the more popular pistol optics become in the competitive and self-defense world, the further the market will be driven to meet that demand.

[Lon]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

From what I’ve seen so far - general issue is fine for academy cadets who start out using a RDO in the academy. For the cops who’ve been on the job for a while? Leave it to the motivated.

[Erick Gelhaus]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

Currently, mostly based on mounting systems, I don't think we at the issue to everyone stage.

[WobblyPossum]

Currently, mostly based on mounting systems, I don't think we at the issue to everyone stage.

What do you think it would take to get mounting systems to the point you’d be comfortable with for general issue? Get rid of MOS-style plate systems completely and standardize on direct-mount, rail-style footprints like the Aimpoint ACRO?

[SoCalDep]

What do you think it would take to get mounting systems to the point you’d be comfortable with for general issue? Get rid of MOS-style plate systems completely and standardize on direct-mount, rail-style footprints like the Aimpoint ACRO?

My experience is limited, but in the several Aimpoint ACROs and 509Ts I’ve seen, none have come loose. The plates have come loose on some, but never the optic. In addition, my Unity ATOM slide (has a slide screw to retain the plates) has not come loose since I applied Loctite 248.

I think a standard milled mini “rail” with cross-bolt screws (is that the correct term?) may be a viable general-issue solution. Top load screws work, but are far from ideal.

[WobblyPossum]

My experience is limited, but in the several Aimpoint ACROs and 509Ts I’ve seen, none have come loose. The plates have come loose on some, but never the optic. In addition, my Unity ATOM slide (has a slide screw to retain the plates) has not come loose since I applied Loctite 248.

I think a standard milled mini “rail” with cross-bolt screws (is that the correct term?) may be a viable general-issue solution. Top load screws work, but are far from ideal.

I think the cross-bolt mounts onto mini rails are probably the next step in the standardization of everything. You can easily build an open-emitter optic that mounts using a cross-bolt. Building a closed-emitter optic that uses top load screws is a lot harder. I’m glad to hear you haven’t seen any of the cross-bolt optics come loose.

[Erick Gelhaus]

What do you think it would take to get mounting systems to the point you’d be comfortable with for general issue? Get rid of MOS-style plate systems completely and standardize on direct-mount, rail-style footprints like the Aimpoint ACRO?

@SoCalDep probably said it better than I could have.

Cross-bolt, clamped inward mounts seem to be performing better than bolt down into mounting systems. Seem. I've got to qualify that because I haven't seen enough Acros and 509Ts yet in classes. The Acro, at least, gives the benefit of lower mounting too - if you consider how Atei is cutting the slide.

eta: I've three first gen Unity Atom mount slides (G17, G19, and a beta test 5" M&P). While I haven't been able to direct compare it to the AOS or Chambers, I'm very happy with it. I'm really looking forward to seeing their second gen mounts in the wild.

[SoCalDep]

As is typical, things have gotten in the way of having time for a detailed post, so this is more of a semi-monthly post as opposed to weekly. I’m on the eve of another two-day optic class, so we’ll see what’s in store in another post, but here’s June so far.

I was part of the staff teaching a standard in-service class early this month. There were two optics in the class. The 5” M&P CORE/RMR functioned perfectly but the Staccato with RMR had multiple (6-7) failure to extract malfunctions in a short period of time before returning to normal function for the last couple hundred rounds. I gave the guy a hundred rounds of duty ammunition and he had no malfunctions, but I recommended he consider having the pistol looked at.

A few days later we taught a two day pistol optic class to part of a large local department’s SWAT team. They were running Staccatos (9 of ‘em) with the exception of a single Glock shooter. All had RMRs. The Staccatos ran like Staccatos in that there were some malfunctions that were due to high round counts, high heat, and lack of cleaning/lube, and some malfunctions that indicate the guns need attention (1911s “can” be completely reliable... but often aren’t... we recommend one ensures that any issues are resolved prior to trusting the pistol for serious work).

Right after that class we held another optic class, but this one was small with only five students. Pistols and optics were as follows:

S&W Performance Center CORE / SRO. (This guy has been through the class and was repeating with a “fun gun”)
S&W M&P CORE 5” / Holosun 507C
Glock 17MOS / Holosun 507C
Glock 17MOS / Trijicon RMR Manual
Staccato / Trijicon SRO

There were several malfunctions with the Staccato - mostly the slide failing to lock to the rear (and confirmed not the fault of the shooter) and no other issues that I can recall.

Last weekend we held another private contract training class hosted by a Northern California Sheriff’s Department. I recently picked up a Holosun 407CO, and not having a Glock available I mounted it to my M&P 2.0 CORE. I shot a couple hundred rounds earlier in the week to zero and get familiar with the optic and pistol and used it during the class for demos. I’m SUPER happy with it (as long as I’m wearing my glasses or contacts) and look forward to using it more.

Pistols / Optics in the class were as follows:

M&P Pro CORE 2.0 / DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
M&P CORE / RMR manual
Glock 34MOS / RMR manual
Glock / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 CORE / RMR manual
Glock “C” model (17 I think) / Holosun 508T (old model)*
Glock 34MOS / Shield RMS
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
Sig M18 / Romeo 1 Pro
Glock / Holosun 507C
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
Glock 34 / RMR manual
Glock / Holosun 508T
Glock 34MOS / Holosun 507C
Glock / RMR manual
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
Sig P320 DeltaPoint Pro

The only functional issue was after the application of water on day #1, when the student using the “C” model Glock noticed the dot was distorted. We cleaned the window and emitter cover and the dot remained significantly distorted. I’m not sure exactly what happened but I’m guessing that there was some sort of water resistance failure and water got inside the area of the emitter. I felt bad but at the same time I’d rather it happen in training than on a rainy day.

The student swapped for another optic on day two and finished the class with no issues. Unfortunately I don’t remember what optic he switched to, but whatever it was, he ran it like mad... great shooter.

The shooter using the Shield optic noticed on day one that when we moved back to 25 yards (where it was dimmer lit compared to the target area) he had difficulty finding the dot and he noticed shifting brightness. I’m not a fan of auto adjust and this was a great example as to why. The low light block reaffirmed those issues.

[HCM]

I think the cross-bolt mounts onto mini rails are probably the next step in the standardization of everything. You can easily build an open-emitter optic that mounts using a cross-bolt. Building a closed-emitter optic that uses top load screws is a lot harder.

This ^^^.

[Caballoflaco]

This ^^^.

I’m hoping that when we get a large agency/gov contract specify a rail mounting system for dots we might finally get an industry standard like the 1913 has become for rifles.

My cynical side says it will end up being something made by sig that wont be compatible with either the 509t or acro mounting system.