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Thread: Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

  1. #51
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    Thea updates are great. I’m “dot curious” and beginning to play with them more and more but the expectation that you’re just going to throw a dot on and live happily ever after seems to definitely not be the case.

  2. #52
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
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    Been a little behind in updating stuff.

    A couple weeks ago we did a 1911 certification class (includes 2011 pistols). This is also a 16hr (two day) course with the first half of the first day in the classroom dealing with cleaning, inspection, lubrication, and function checks - along with understanding how a 1911 works, and how it doesn't. Total round count for the class is probably around 600-700 rounds depending on whether one is using a single or double stack.

    This class was an interesting first in that of the eight students, six had optics on their pistols (meaning they'd already taken the 16hr pistol optic course for the department).

    Pistols and optics used were as follows:

    Springfield Operator .45 (factory optic ready - UNICORN!!!) / RMR (manual)
    Citadel (Rock Island Armory produced so I'm told) / iron sights (This guy was a retired firearm instructor and reserve with a non-authorized handgun he was using for fun. He will not be using it on duty, but it provided some interesting information...
    Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato / Irons
    Staccato / RMR (manual)
    Staccato / Holosun 507C
    Staccato / Holosun 507C
    Staccato / Holosun 507C

    As is usually the case, it was demonstrated in the class that on a 1911, everything affects everything else. The Citadel was running 100% for it's lefty shooter until lunch on day #2. Just before we broke he noticed the extended slide stop lever had broken off. At lunch he cleaned and lubricated his pistol and switched the slide stop for a standard (unknown brand/model) slide stop. Upon our return the pistol decided it needed to not extract about every two to four rounds. He field stripped and found a small burr on the slide stop. he stoned it (he's one of our armorers) and after reassembling it ran 100% for the rest of the day. I can't explain it... but it happenend.

    We also had problems with the DeltaPoint Pro on the Staccato. I know this is starting to be old news, but there's something not cool going on in this setup. I can't tell if it's the optic, the gun, or the screws, but I'm leaning toward the latter. At some point (I can't remember exactly when) a screw came loose and we reinstalled. It ran fine the rest of the day.

    One thing I'm going to start trying to take note of is which screw is coming loose. If my memory serves, this one (as well as another in a post to follow) was the left screw that came loose first.

    As for the guns, the Springfield ran great and most of the Staccatos did as well. There were a couple issues of magazines not locking to the rear and one gun that did have consistent problems with failures to extract (I think it's a simple extractor tensioning but that's something for the armorers/factory to address... not me) on practice ammo and while less frequently with duty ammo as well.

    I know this is an optic thread, but a 2011 is still a 1911... It can be 100% but may not be without some attention.

  3. #53
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Last week was another pistol optic class. By now you know the deal... two days, around 1,000-1,200 rounds. We had students from three California local law enforcement agencies in attendance.

    Pistols/optics used were as follows:

    Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
    Sig P226 Legion (optic ready) / Sig Romeo 1Pro
    Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato / RMR (manual)
    M&P 2.0 CORE / Holosun 508T
    M&P 2.0 CORE / Holosun 508T-G
    M&P 2.0 CORE / RMR (manual)
    Glock 45 / RMR (manual)
    Glock 45 / Holosun 507C
    M&P 2.0 CORE / Holosun 407A*

    *The student using the M&P/Holosun 407A was using a T&E handgun and the same optic that was used in our Holosun testing (used for 10,000+ rounds and dropped four times on concrete). We're using it as part of our testing as to whether McMaster-Carr stainless steel screws are acceptable for duty use. His purpose for attending the class was to carry a Sig P365XL off duty with a Sig RomeoZero optic.

    As much as I would like to have all optics mounted well before the class to give the threadlocker time to cure, that's not always possible (nor does it always work, as we'll address later). One student needed a DeltaPoint Pro mounted on a Staccato on the morning of day #1. I did that using the mounting procedure that has been consistently successful with other platforms. By mid day the indicater marks showed the screws had moved. The left had moved more than the right. Since we don't have any DPP screws, I re-tightened and he completed the day.

    We had one of the M&P CORE pistols with a holosun 508T come loose on day #1 as well. This one had been mounted by one of us four days prior to the class using our procedures. He was using one of the C&H Precision plates, and when I removed the optic I noticed some beveled "wear" on the circle cutouts where it mates with the raised bosses in the CORE slide cut. I thought the "wear" was due to movement of the optic and was pretty concerned about re-mounting with the plate, but turns out it's maybe not a problem... more on that later. Another weird thing about this situation with the CORE/Holosun... We discovered it was loose when the student asked me to switch his battery to a Duracell. The indicator marks hadn't moved at all but the optic was clearly loose. I didn't mount it so I can't say whether it wasn't torqued all the way or if something else contributed to it coming loose, but the screws hadn't turned. I can't explain it except to suspect it either wasn't torqued down enough (probably), or the screws failed, which after closely inspecting them I highly doubt.

    I removed the optic and re-installed it with new screws and it ran fine the rest of the class.

    On day #2 the Staccato/DPP came loose again after only a hundred rounds or so. I re-torqued to 25 in/lbs again and it ran fine to the end of the day - we checked the torque twice throughout and didn't notice any loosening, but the student was instructed not to use the pistol on duty and to request new screws from Leupold. We'll see how that goes.

    The T&E pistol with the Holosun 407A and stainless screws completed a documented 1,100 rounds over the two days with no issues at all. It's still very early in the "endurance" testing, but I don't expect problems.

    We zeroed two Sig P365XLs as well. One with a Holosun 507K and the other with that RomeZero. No problems zeroing but not a high round count either.

    So regarding the C&H plates - The beveling I saw in the class was the first time I'd seen anything like it on one of their plates, but I had another deputy come in later in the week to have an optic mounted with a C&H plate and when I opened the sealed package it had the same beveling. So it seems like this is something done on purpose.

  4. #54
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    RE: Staccato

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post

    One thing I'm going to start trying to take note of is which screw is coming loose. If my memory serves, this one (as well as another in a post to follow) was the left screw that came loose first.
    Long time reader, but finally signed up to reply to this tidbit. On (2) Staccato/DPP combos, I’ve found both LEFT screws loosened. I have I just got new DPP screws in and will try again with the Staccato suggested 25in/lbs. I’m glad it’s not just me, but makes me wonder.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    So regarding the C&H plates - The beveling I saw in the class was the first time I'd seen anything like it on one of their plates, but I had another deputy come in later in the week to have an optic mounted with a C&H plate and when I opened the sealed package it had the same beveling. So it seems like this is something done on purpose.
    Great info as always. RE: the C&H plates, I just received mine for my M&P and it too had some of the finish worn off around the holes that align with the bosses in the slide. I wonder if they were having mating issues or something. Either way, knock on wood, my C&H plate fits both the slide and my 507C very snugly.

  6. #56
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    This past week we had another pistol optic class. This one was attended by members of one municipal LE agency from a bit South of us and they were all great shooters, many of them with little to no experience with pistol-optics. By the end all of them were shooting impressively.

    Guns/ Optics used are as follows:

    M&P 2.0 CORE/ Holosun 507C
    Glock 45/ Holosun 507C
    Glock 45/ Holosun 507C
    M&P 2.0 CORE/ RMR manual
    M&P 2.0 CORE/ Vortex Venom
    Glock/ RMR manual
    M&P 2.0 CORE/ Holosun 508T
    Staccato/ RMR manual
    Staccato/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock/ RMR manual
    M&P 2.0 CORE/ RMR manual
    M&P 2.0 CORE 5"/ Holosun 507C

    The guns and optics ran very well and I don't remember a single malfunction on the first day. On day 2 there were a few malfunctions with the dry/dirty Staccatos, most predominantly the common and frustrating failure to fully feed on a reload when the thumb placed pressure on the slide as it was released. I have a 4" 9mm 1911 and without significant deliberate pressure I can't impede the slide, but both my 5" 9mm guns did (notice past tense - they're gone). If I was running a Staccato, this stuff would concern me. I'd say that these guns almost require racking rather than using the slide release but I'm really not a fan of trying to train around a problem. For the guys in the class, the guns ran great most of the two days and most of the issues occured when reloading under pressure. Hmm...

    The other interesting occurance involved a bad round. When the shooter attempted to tap and rack to clear the malfunction, he racked off the optic, blocking the ejection port. The round was prevented from fully ejecting, spun around, and reinserted itself backwards in the barrel. After additional attempts to clear the malfunction (he went into a "lock - rip - rack - reload") he had really pounded the round in there and ultimately the bullet had to be pulled with a multi-tool just in case and the cartridge had to be pounded out with a rod. This is not the first time I've seen this and I am NOT a fan of using the optic for manipulation with the exception of injured shooter situations, and there I think it's important to build techniques that avoid blocking the ejection port.

    There were no issues with the optics in the course.

    Later in the week I helped teach one of our in-service training classes. Of the eighteen students, one had a pistol-optic. He's a former recruit and really good with a handgun. Like scary good. We messed with him all day, occluding the front of his optic window for about an hour of the course, randomly turning his dot on and off, and forcing him to shoot at much smaller targets compared to everyone else. He was using an M&P 2.0 CORE 5" with an RMR manual model. He had no gun or optic issues. I know it's his talent and ability but watching him shoot makes me proud to have been a part of his training. It's refreshing.

  7. #57
    How refreshing (and surprising) that you didn’t have a single mount or optic come loose during your training this time!
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #58
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    The Wasatch Front
    Last week, I taught a closed enrollment pistol-mounted optics-centric Gunsite 250 for an industry group of eleven. I applaud their boss for bringing his people to a class that is specific to their role, task. Round count – about 1000 each of ball and +/- 50 of frangible.

    All but two shot Shadow System’s DR920s or MR920s all week, the others were a G17 and a G19. Every one of the optics was a Holosun 500 series – 507s, 508s, and 509s.

    (One of Shadow System’s media people has been a student of mine previously, prior to him going to work for them. )

    There was a mounting issue with one optic/pistol that revealed itself no later than day #2. We tell the students to run the slide like they’re trying to rip it off the back of the gun. Well, he damn near did that. Both mounting screws had loosened, the left-hand one completely. Both had indications of thread locker on them. Each had some indication of having stripped the lower threads. We re-mounted the optic, using new screws with thread locker on them. Aside from having to re-zero, no more issues.

    One pistol/optic got knocked out of a holster and onto a concrete floor from waist height. The student wanted to re-zero; no other issues.

    On the afternoon of day 4, another student had an interesting glitch with a 507C. Making ready, he verified he had the reticle he wanted (circle/dot) and at the desired brightness. On the “go” command, he drew and shot. After the first round of that string, the circle/dot was gone for him. I found it by over-exaggerating the downward rotation of the muzzle. What I saw was a large portion of a circle, say 11 to 1 o’clock, with just enough of a U where the dot would be. No pushing of either the + or – buttons changed it. About half the class could find what I saw, the other half could not. Had the student power it off, pull the battery, re-insert it, and power it back up. No issues after that.

    Ammunition? The class was shooting Federal branded white box-like 115gr 9mm ball. Over the course of the week, with several, but not quite all of the pistols, it produced a bunch of spall or fragmentation on the targets – usually in the 3 to 5-yard range. Disconcerting, but not a showstopper. I’m not sure whose barrels Shadow Systems uses. There were also enough failures to fire across the class that it caught my attention.

    All of the Shadow System pistols had magazine wells. The students were using a mix of OEM magazines and Magpul PMags. I did not see any stoppages that were attributable to either magazine. However, there were enough failures to fire, due to a lack of feeding a round, that we noticed it. More than a few magazines landed on the range during recoil. I can’t tell you if it was a student issue or a magazine or mag well dimension/tolerance issue.

    I apologize for not diving deeper into these last two issues.

    This was the largest number of Holosun optics I’ve seen in one setting. I’d have no problem buying them (well, I already have for my 4” P/C Shield). I wouldn’t walk away from the Shadow Systems’ pistols either. The slides are cut for both the Trijicon and Leupold footprints; though I’d be deliberate on magazine selection.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Last week, I taught a closed enrollment pistol-mounted optics-centric Gunsite 250 for an industry group of eleven. I applaud their boss for bringing his people to a class that is specific to their role, task. Round count – about 1000 each of ball and +/- 50 of frangible.

    All but two shot Shadow System’s DR920s or MR920s all week, the others were a G17 and a G19. Every one of the optics was a Holosun 500 series – 507s, 508s, and 509s.

    (One of Shadow System’s media people has been a student of mine previously, prior to him going to work for them. )

    There was a mounting issue with one optic/pistol that revealed itself no later than day #2. We tell the students to run the slide like they’re trying to rip it off the back of the gun. Well, he damn near did that. Both mounting screws had loosened, the left-hand one completely. Both had indications of thread locker on them. Each had some indication of having stripped the lower threads. We re-mounted the optic, using new screws with thread locker on them. Aside from having to re-zero, no more issues.

    One pistol/optic got knocked out of a holster and onto a concrete floor from waist height. The student wanted to re-zero; no other issues.

    On the afternoon of day 4, another student had an interesting glitch with a 507C. Making ready, he verified he had the reticle he wanted (circle/dot) and at the desired brightness. On the “go” command, he drew and shot. After the first round of that string, the circle/dot was gone for him. I found it by over-exaggerating the downward rotation of the muzzle. What I saw was a large portion of a circle, say 11 to 1 o’clock, with just enough of a U where the dot would be. No pushing of either the + or – buttons changed it. About half the class could find what I saw, the other half could not. Had the student power it off, pull the battery, re-insert it, and power it back up. No issues after that.

    Ammunition? The class was shooting Federal branded white box-like 115gr 9mm ball. Over the course of the week, with several, but not quite all of the pistols, it produced a bunch of spall or fragmentation on the targets – usually in the 3 to 5-yard range. Disconcerting, but not a showstopper. I’m not sure whose barrels Shadow Systems uses. There were also enough failures to fire across the class that it caught my attention.

    All of the Shadow System pistols had magazine wells. The students were using a mix of OEM magazines and Magpul PMags. I did not see any stoppages that were attributable to either magazine. However, there were enough failures to fire, due to a lack of feeding a round, that we noticed it. More than a few magazines landed on the range during recoil. I can’t tell you if it was a student issue or a magazine or mag well dimension/tolerance issue.

    I apologize for not diving deeper into these last two issues.

    This was the largest number of Holosun optics I’ve seen in one setting. I’d have no problem buying them (well, I already have for my 4” P/C Shield). I wouldn’t walk away from the Shadow Systems’ pistols either. The slides are cut for both the Trijicon and Leupold footprints; though I’d be deliberate on magazine selection.
    Thank you Erick, for this thread, and @SoCalDep for jumping in and contributing. You guys are providing a lot of real world data for those of us still looking at the dot world from the outside in. Especially those of us looking at policies and practices for an LE agency Optics Program.

  10. #60
    So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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