Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

[GJM]

The factory plate system on the PPQ/Q5 is extremely robust.

[NH Shooter]

I read your other post and I'm looking forward to seeing your experience with this.

The forces acting upon a pistol optic are substantially more severe than rifle recoil. I would be a little concerned that the JB Weld's PSI is significantly less than the rating of the screws we use, and depending on the mixture of the two components, cure time, thickness, etc., could act as more of a gasket allowing movement than a bonding agent holding everything together.

Then there's the issue of being able to change optics for new technology or to go a different route and I'm not sure how practical this method would be for most people. That said, if it works and holds everything together, and one has no intention of changing optics this could be a way to go. The larger coverage area could somewhat make up for the lower psi but I'm no engineer so this is just guessing.

All valid concerns!

Full disclosure, I'm going to need both the plate and milled slide in-hand before I know exactly how I'll go about this. I have neither at this point so I'm making some assumptions. Only a minimum amount of bedding material is used, and only in spots it will be helpful. So unless the plate sits in the pocket (no screws) with absolutely zero wiggle, this procedure will be beneficial.

In a perfect world, the plate would fit in the milled pocket perfectly, as if the plate and slide were a single piece. Since this is generally not possible with mass produced parts, I have to believe there will be some "wiggle room" between the two due to manufacturing and machining tolerances. If there is any fore-and-aft play between the two, all recoil forces are transferred to those tiny screws as the slide reciprocates. Yes, the plate is held from moving by the compressive friction between the bottom of the plate and the pocket, but the screws are providing the compression for that friction.

As we all know, if the screws loosen so does the plate.

So the primary purpose of "bedding" the plate is to entirely remove any gap (especially on the front and back edges) between the plate and pocket. The goal is to pass the recoil forces directly into the slide, and not have to depend on the screws to directly or indirectly bear the brunt of that task (think of how a recoil lug in a bolt action rifle passes the energy directly to the stock). So right now, I'm thinking the judicious use of JB Weld will be primarily on the front and back edges of the plate to fill any gap between the two. I'm also thinking some will go in the recesses machined on both sides of the pocket that engage the lugs on the bottom of the plate.

The secondary benefit of bedding - if one forgoes the use of release agent - is that the compressive "friction hold" between plate and the milled pocket is supplemented with direct bonding at the points the bedding material is used. Between eliminating any movement of the plate in the pocket and the direct bonding of the two, the stress on the screws is almost entirely eliminated.

However, the screws are still used! The only place release agent will be used (as a precaution) is on the screw threads so that once the bedding is set, the screws can be removed. The screws and tappings are then cleaned and the screws reinstalled with thread locker and torqued to the correct value as per normal procedure.

But what if I want to change the plate? Parts bonded with JB Weld can be separated with the application of heat. It takes a lot more heat than a slide (or a bolt action rifle receiver) will ever be subject to in normal use, but not so much as to damage the plate or slide (think of how hot a barrel can get with bursts of full auto). I use a small map gas torch to apply heat until the parts can be separated with the tap of a hammer, and the residual JB Weld scraped off.

So in summary the goal is to reduce dependence on the just the screws to keep the plate from moving by perfectly mating the plate to the pocket. IMO this an ideal application for this procedure, which I believe will eliminate any possibility of a plate coming loose. I will certainly document the procedure once I have everything needed to proceed.

[Controlledpairs2]

This is fascinating. My 2011 with a Chambers custom RDSM plate is installed with a layer of loctite between the plate and slide to remove moisture and add robustness (not sure which kind of green). The plate sits tight in the milled pocket with 4 screws. I assumed the layer of loctite added a substantial amount of security. The Chambers RDSM plate is the only one I have yet to see come loose but my personal experience is limited to 6000 rounds.

[Controlledpairs2]

1. Lasers are FAST in dark conditions. I think I’m faster with a laser than with a dot and I’m pretty fast with a dot. Being able to see the laser dot prior to bringing the pistol to eye level while remaining target focused is like the best of irons (seeing them before full presentation) and a dot.
2. Lasers are not fast in daylight. In fact they suck. Even green lasers are hard to find quickly beyond very close range and depending on the type or color of clothing the dot can be difficult if not impossible to see… even green. Since it’s daytime about half the time, the laser is unacceptable to be the primary aiming tool.
3. Activation can be non-intuitive and requires practice to perform under stress, especially the electronic switches such as those on the Surefire XC2 and Streamlight TLR-8 and 10. Without that practice, the need to activate the laser significantly delays the ability to come on target and shoot. I also saw manipulation failures where the student pushed too long and thinking they activated the constant, actually were in momentary and turned off the laser when they released the switch, creating a delay as they had to remember to re-activate or switch to irons.
4. Lasers can loose zero, batteries can fail, electronics can fail, and they can be mounted incorrectly. While we’ve worked hard to mitigate these issues with pistol optics and they’ve become pretty dependable, lasers are less popular and therefore in spite of over 20 years of experience running lasers, I don’t have answers for a lot of the potential failures.
5. Lasers are not as precise as iron sights or a dot due to difficulty in making precise adjustments (no clicks) and offset/trajectory issues. For precision or distance, use irons or dot.
6. Laser offset at close range (especially for light/laser units that place the laser below the light) can be confusing, especially when dot shooters and rifle shooters are used to the opposite offset.
7. Lasers have use other than simply as a sight such as for marking (“He’s firing from the window where my laser is circling guys!”).
8. Lasers are great for awkward positions such as reaching over obstacles, entanglement, and very close range shooting, especially inside structures where one can’t get the gun in front of their face.
9. I’m not sold on the “intimidation” factor. I’ve had it work great and I’ve had it not work at all. Worth a try? Maybe.
10. Activation method is a big thing and will determine applicability and usefulness. Depending on the specific laser system used and what one wants to do with it may mean a serious training/practice learning curve. In addition to the activation issues I discussed in #3, one student who had a very aggressive forward support hand grip repeatedly changed the mode (light/laser/light and laser) during firing and had to work consciously on changing his grip. I’ve also noticed this when trying to activate the TLR-2 toggle using the Frank Proctor rocking method for WML toggle-switch activation.

From my perspective running the laser with an optic, I like the idea of having it there but would normally run it as light-only and use it as more of a tactical tool than a low-light sighting device. Optics are more reliable, easier to zero, more precise, useable across all lighting conditions, always on, and don’t have the potential to give away one’s position like a laser does. Holster compatibility can also be difficult.

Ultimately, I do think a laser can be a beneficial addition to a pistol given an understanding of what it can and can’t do. I still think a laser is great on backup revolvers and I’d throw one on a self CCW gun in a second, especially if it had a pressure switch and if I wasn’t running a WML. It has niche uses for home defense and law enforcement but requires training to best take advantage of it and to understand what it doesn’t do well. In fact, 8 hours was just enough to show the students some basics, provide guidance for practice and continued skill-building, and expose weaknesses.

Great post. Did you ever find yourself confused or slow to find your laser when there were teammates or multiple lasers in play? This has always slowed me down slightly under NODS/IR use around teammates and my laser setting wasn't high enough to create the lightsaber effect. I assume the daylight lasers wouldn't be able to achieve this unless it was really smoky.

[SoCalDep]

Great post. Did you ever find yourself confused or slow to find your laser when there were teammates or multiple lasers in play? This has always slowed me down slightly under NODS/IR use around teammates and my laser setting wasn't high enough to create the lightsaber effect. I assume the daylight lasers wouldn't be able to achieve this unless it was really smoky.

I would agree with your experience, especially since you generally don’t have close focus with NODS to be able to revert to irons. Even passive aiming with an optic gives you a “dot” to somewhat match everyone else’s.

I’ll throw out that I’ve not had to worry much about multiple dots because most people never ran them so there were rarely more than one or two on scene. That said, we discuss this in training and the simple answer for confusion using the visible lasers is to simply switch to the primary sight (irons or dot).

[SoCalDep]

Since my last post on January 9th we’ve done 5 classes… Three department classes, a private LE-only class hosted by a Sheriff’s Department and attended by members of several different agencies, and a private LE-only firearm instructor course. As always (or mostly), there’s some mounting stuff to talk about (I’ll hit that in a separate post) and some interesting (at least for me) observations.

I’ll start with a department class from January. There were thirteen students in the class which included three outside agency students who came from two different police departments.

Pistols and optics used were as follows:

M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR- manual
Staccato P-DPO / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon SRO
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 407C
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 CORE / Aimpoint ACRO P-1*
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro

*- The M&P/ACRO was borrowed. The student brought a Sig P226 Legion optic-ready gun with a C&H adaptor plate, but it was (I think) an older slide that didn’t have the additional threaded holes for the RMR pattern.

Four optics were found to be loose at the end of the first day. Three were mounted by the user. On one of them, VC-3 was used for threadlocker. It did it’s typical thing and didn’t work.

The other was a 509T that was mounted at our armory. The optic was loose on the plate but the plate was still secure to the slide. I’ve had some 509Ts come loose from the plate and I’ve started to remove the screw for the optic itself, degrease it and the optic threads, and use Loctite 248 in addition to the factory-applied locking compound. So far I’ve had good results but this one hadn’t had any 248 applied to the crossbolt. We re-mounted all the optics and they all held up through day #2. (***This portion of the post was written over a month ago, and I decided to leave it, but this has become a much more significant issue and will be discussed in a follow-up post)

Another student running an RMR (RM09) asked me to look at his optic toward the beginning of day #1. It wouldn’t turn off and would not dim past three or four steps down from full brightness. He’ll be dealing with Trijicon’s warranty and I’m sure they’ll take care of the problem. That said, I’ve never seen that before. He was able to complete the class with the optic and it worked fine other than the noted issues.

We did have some pistol malfunctions. One 5” M&P had multiple horizontal stovepipes. While our practice ammo is certainly not the most reliable, the fact his pistol alone had so many was concerning. He was advised to bring it to the armory for an inspection.

Lastly, I saw a malfunction that’s been discussed on this forum before, I believe by GJM and I kinda poopoo’d the concern since we’d used many SROs over tens of thousands of rounds and had never seen the malfunction. Well, I saw it on day #2. One student’s pistol malfunctioned where the casing became caught between the ejection port and the forward portion of the SRO optic body. I still think it’s rare, but it can/does happen. Here’s a pic:





The following documents pistols/optics in a private LE-only red-dot class we taught in January. Still two days and very similar curriculum. There were a total of 20 students from one state and various local agencies. This class was held in a very nice indoor range which allows for a very efficient yet “illuminating” low light block.

Pistols and optics used were as follows:

Sig P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Walther PDP / Holosun 508T
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Trijicon RMR – auto adjust
Glock / Holosun 507C ACSS
Sig P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro (day 1) and Staccato P-DPO / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro (day 2)
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P320 / Aimpoint ACRO P-2
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Sig P320 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P320 / RMR – manual and PMM comped barrel
Sig P365XL / Holosun 507K
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Holosun 509T

As for instructors, we both shot our M&P 2.0s with Aimpoint ACRO P-2s and Apex barrels.

Once we got out on the range one student asked me to mount a Holosun 508T on their Sig P320. He had the appropriate C&H plate which came with two sizes of screws. I assumed that as with other C&H kits, the longer set was for the RMR and the shorter for the Holosun. I used the shorter set.

I mounted the optic using our procedure and all seemed well. When the user attempted to load, the pistol would not feed. The rim was caught under the extractor and we quickly figured out that the right screw was preventing movement of the extractor. Removing the optic allowed movement of the extractor and proper function. I checked the screws and they were both the same length.

I started to hunt for a shorter set of screws and tried the Holosun factory screws as well as shorter 6-32 screws they all started just fine with multiple rotations but then seemed to “stop” with lots of wiggle left in the optic. Since these screws were all shorter than the C&H screws, I found that odd. I tried metric screws and none of them fit. I didn’t want to try to force anything, and the student had a spare Romeo 1Pro so we installed that and he completed the course with no issues. I’m going to contact Sig and see what the deal is so I can be more prepared next time.

About halfway through day #2 the student with the Glock and Holosun 507C-ACSS discovered the optic was loose. I re-mounted it with new screws and he completed the course with no issues. He had mounted the optic himself previously.

The student with the RMR auto adjust did not like it at all in the low light block. Not only did it not adapt as well to WML use as he had expected it to, it flickered simply due to muzzle flash in the dark and he found its use distracting in all but completely stable lighting.

There were very few malfunctions and those that did occur were almost entirely user induced.



In early February we taught a private LE-Only firearm instructor school with 13 students from various local departments. Since the majority (9 of 13) of students ran optics, I figured it would be beneficial to include this class:

Glock 17 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 19 / Iron Sights
Glock 19 / Iron Sights
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Shadow Systems DR920 / Holosun 507C-GR
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – manual
Staccato P-DPO / Trijicon RMR – manual
Sig P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Glock / Trijicon RMR – auto adjust
Sig P226 / Iron Sights
S&W M&P 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Iron Sights

We had two optic issues in the class. The Trijicon RMR came loose on a student’s Staccato on the fourth or fifth day of the six-day class. It had been installed by him about a year and a half prior. We reinstalled and there were no further issues.

Both of us (instructors) were using M&Ps with Aimpoint ACRO P-2s and Apex barrels. On (I believe) the second to last day, the dot on my partner’s gun went dim. We tested the battery and it still had 3.03 volts, so something happened with the optic. I have been in contact with Aimpoint and they have been very helpful. These were pre-production sample optics, and from my understanding Aimpoint has already identified this problem, it's a relatively easy fix, and it shouldn’t be an issue with production models.



In mid February we did a department pistol optic class with 14 students. Twelve were from my department and two were from a local police department. Pistols/Optics:

FN FNX / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 21 / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 45 / Trijicon SRO
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon SRO
Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual

Here are some issues that occurred:

One person showed up with a Holosun 509T mounted to an M&P with the S&W RMR plate, and the Holosun adaptor plate. It came loose within 20 rounds and nothing was tight. We re-mounted and let him complete the class. He had no further issues but he can’t use the pistol on duty until he gets a different mounting solution (read: C&H plate – more on that later) that allows use of the backup iron sights.

On day #2, the RMR came loose on the FN FNX. This pistol was used by a student from a different department. He’s had the optic on the pistol for a while. It had been mounted directly to the slide and after some research we found that there should be a plate. He had purchased the slide used and no plates were included. We re-mounted and he finished the class with no issues, but I forwarded him links on places where he could order the appropriate plate.

We had more of the super-frequent malfunctions with practice ammo and 5” M&Ps. Two of them. We had them start to run duty ammunition and there were no issues. The ammo causes issues with other guns, but the 5” M&Ps particularly hate it.

Both an instructor (Glock) and student (Sig P226) had rear iron sights shift.



The most recent department class we did had 14 students, all from our department. Pistols/Optics:

M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 407C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 407C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon SRO
Staccato C2-DPO / Trijicon RMR – auto adjust
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR - manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” /Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 17 / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR - manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual

One of the Holosun 509Ts would only function in “circle-dot” mode. When switched to the dot-only, the unit would simply turn off. This is similar to a malfunction we’ve seen in an earlier class, but in that class the dot wouldn’t work at all and the only reticle that functioned was the circle – so not quite the same.

Between day 1 and day 2, one of the Holosun 407Cs died. New batteries (tried two) didn’t help and the optic was declared deceased prior to the start of day 2. He borrowed an instructor's pistol and finished the course.

At the end of day 2, one of the Holosun 509Ts came loose. The optic was still tight to the plate but the plate was loose on the slide. This is becoming a significant issue and I’ll detail it more in the next post with a request for some input and feedback from the group.

[GJM]

Quick question for you -- if you eliminated plates and had all direct milled installations, what percentage of issues do you think would go away?

[MVS]

@SoCalDep, if I haven't thanked you for this great contribution before, thanks. What a great resource. Perhaps it is my institutional bias, but I can't imagine keeping track of all of those different duty combinations. Every agency by me of any size, say 15 or 20, has one specific issued duty pistol. Some of them, the one I worked at among the group, also had issued back up guns. It just escapes me why a department would go for all of that variation.

[SoCalDep]

@SoCalDep, if I haven't thanked you for this great contribution before, thanks. What a great resource. Perhaps it is my institutional bias, but I can't imagine keeping track of all of those different duty combinations. Every agency by me of any size, say 15 or 20, has one specific issued duty pistol. Some of them, the one I worked at among the group, also had issued back up guns. It just escapes me why a department would go for all of that variation.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I find that with smaller departments it's common to have a single issued pistol. For my department, it's less like a single entity and more like a whole bunch of different small parts. We have something around twenty eight patrol stations, forty two (or so) contract cities, rail lines, county services such as community colleges, county hospitals, buildings, and complexes, dozens of courthouses, a bunch of custody facilities, multiple full-time SWAT teams, search-and-rescue, an Emergency Services Detail that operates multiple Eurocopter Super Puma Helicopters staffed with pilots and tactical paramedics, both inland and ocean water-borne operations and every other thing you would imagine for LE (undercover special teams, narcotics, etc.)

Our jurisdiction encompasses environments that are just about as varied. This includes mountains and a ski resort, deserts, vast urban areas, VERY rural areas, coastal communities, and the department even patrols a city on an island off the pacific coast.

All this to say, we have a lot of people with a lot of needs and a lot of opinions. Rather than replace a pistol or piece of equipment every time leadership wants something new, or someone needs something different, we try to be responsive to what will fill the niche by adding optional platforms. If one wants to run the issued equipment, which most do, then they have good equipment. If one wants something different to fit their needs, we have the logistical support to allow them to do that.

Directly on the subject of optics... Getting a department with around 10,000 - 11,000 armed personnel to switch wholesale to an optic is an astronomical endeavor. Allowing it as an option where the department doesn't have to spend a poop-ton of money on it is way more realistic. Then the ship starts turning, and eventually bigger changes can take place.

[MVS]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I find that with smaller departments it's common to have a single issued pistol. For my department, it's less like a single entity and more like a whole bunch of different small parts. We have something around twenty eight patrol stations, forty two (or so) contract cities, rail lines, county services such as community colleges, county hospitals, buildings, and complexes, dozens of courthouses, a bunch of custody facilities, multiple full-time SWAT teams, search-and-rescue, an Emergency Services Detail that operates multiple Eurocopter Super Puma Helicopters staffed with pilots and tactical paramedics, both inland and ocean water-borne operations and every other thing you would imagine for LE (undercover special teams, narcotics, etc.)

Our jurisdiction encompasses environments that are just about as varied. This includes mountains and a ski resort, deserts, vast urban areas, VERY rural areas, coastal communities, and the department even patrols a city on an island off the pacific coast.

All this to say, we have a lot of people with a lot of needs and a lot of opinions. Rather than replace a pistol or piece of equipment every time leadership wants something new, or someone needs something different, we try to be responsive to what will fill the niche by adding optional platforms. If one wants to run the issued equipment, which most do, then they have good equipment. If one wants something different to fit their needs, we have the logistical support to allow them to do that.

Directly on the subject of optics... Getting a department with around 10,000 - 11,000 armed personnel to switch wholesale to an optic is an astronomical endeavor. Allowing it as an option where the department doesn't have to spend a poop-ton of money on it is way more realistic. Then the ship starts turning, and eventually bigger changes can take place.

Thanks for the reply. Never would have thought of some of those things. I have no experience with bigger agency's (the Army is big, but a little different).