Page 12 of 33 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 325

Thread: Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

  1. #111
    Site Supporter MD7305's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NE Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    My 509T work from Chip Wiz during their dark days, so hopefully the new CORE 509T plates are good. Doesn’t seem like rocket science.
    Thanks for being the test case! Seriously though, appreciate you sharing your experiences, it's very helpful.

  2. #112
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    OK… So it’s been a while and I have a lot of catching up to do (Seven classes worth)…

    Around the end of June we did a somewhat unusual 1911 certification course (two-days, probably 800ish rounds total each). We had fifteen students from several agencies. Pistols and optics were as follows:

    4 x Staccatos with DeltaPoint Pros
    4 x Staccatos with Trijicon SROs
    3 x Staccatos with Trijicon RMRs

    One student used a Colt M45A1 on day #1 and a borrowed Staccato with a DeltaPoint Pro (not listed above) for day #2. I taught with a borrowed iron-sight Staccato.
    Three students from a neighboring agency were sent thinking it was a pistol optic class instead of a 1911 class so they showed up with Glocks and RMRs. They hung out and since all but one on day one had a dot and everyone on day 2 had a dot we made it a bit of a hybrid course.

    As far as optics go I can’t remember any major issues in that class. We had several issues with Staccatos from magazines failing to lock back to some extraction issues and the inevitable dirty/dry guns failing to feed, especially from slide lock when thumbing the slide release. What does this mean for Staccatos and my opinion of them? Well – I bought a C2 after the class. I’m experienced with 1911s and their finicky personalities, and the Staccato is simply a 9mm 1911 with some updates. It can be 100% reliable, but won’t always come out of the box 100% reliable. This can be frustrating but with patience they can be great guns. So far (knock on wood) my C2 is approaching 1,000 rounds with no malfunctions using duty and practice ammunition and no cleaning… just occasional application of lube.


    The next class was a 60-hr contract firearm instructor class in late July attended by 16 students from various agencies from around the state and even a couple solid shooters who drove 11 hours from Nevada. Round count was probably around 1,000 total of pistol ammunition since the course incorporated long gun training as well. Of those, nine students had iron sights (eight Glocks and a Sig P320) and seven used an optic. The breakdown of those is as follows:

    Glock with aftermarket slide/RMR – Manual adjust
    Glock/ DeltaPoint Pro
    M&P CORE/ Vortex Venom
    Glock/RMR – Auto adjust
    Glock 34 gen 4/ RMR – Manual adjust
    Glock 34 gen 5 / SRO
    Glock / RMR – Manual adjust
    I can’t recall any optic issues during the class.


    Next up in mid-August was a Department class attended by a special unit of a local police department – Typical round count of about 1,000+ rounds. There were two shooters using Staccatos with RMR manual adjust models and the rest (10 shooters) were using Glocks with RMRs. I think everyone was running manual adjust models.
    There were no optic issues that I can recall and other than a sluggish Staccato-P on day #2 (lube fixed it up) there were no gun issues either.


    On August 23-24 we held an optic cert class with ten students. Eight were from our Department and two were from a local police department. Pistols/optics used were as follows:

    Staccato P / DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock / RMR – Auto adjust
    Glock / RMR – Manual adjust
    Glock 45 / Holosun 507C with ACSS Vulcan reticle
    Glock / Holosun 508T
    S&W M&P Optic Ready 5” / RMR – Manual adjust
    Staccato P / DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock / RMR – Manual adjust
    S&W M&P Optic Ready / RMR – Manual adjust
    Glock / RMR – Manual adjust

    One of the Staccatos had some issues with some magazines not locking to the rear. The other one worked fine through both days. This was the first time I’ve been able to handle a mounted 507C with the Vulcan reticle and I like it. I see how it could be a help to a newer dot shooter or when shooting one-handed or support handed. I also like that the reticle is much less likely to be lost or confused in glare situations, but having no live-fire time behind it my opinion is subject to change. There were no issues with any of the optics.


    On Aug 31-Sept 1 we held another optic class with six of our personnel and four from another local agency. Pistols/optics were as follows:

    Glock / RMR- Manual
    Glock / RMR – Auto
    Glock / RMR – Auto
    Glock / Holosun 509T
    M&P Optic-Ready 5” / Holosun 509T
    M&P Optic-Ready 5” / Holosun 509T
    M&P Optic-Ready 4.25” / Holosun 508T
    Sig P226 Legion / Romeo 1Pro
    Glock 45 / Holosun 509T
    Glock 17 / RMR – Manual

    This class was the one where we had some issues with C&H 509T plates. The first happened on day #1 and involved the optic coming loose from the plate (on one of the Glocks). Once removed we found the plate was also loose. The front sight was also loose. The rear sight had been installed backwards. Basically, it was a shitshow. Upon inspection, if threadlocker had been used I saw no evidence of it. Everything got cleaned off, new screws used, degreased, and mounted according to our methods. There were no further issues with that pistol during the class.

    The second problem was noticed by a student prior to shooting on day #2. This was an M&P and the plate was loose. Again, if there was any threadlocker used I couldn’t tell. It was re-installed with new screws as per our methods and there were no other issues during the class.

    A third student had the optic come loose from the plate just after shooting started on day #2. This was another Glock. When we got it apart we found that one of the plate screws was loose as well and VC3 had been used. There was enough on the parts that I would say the application was excessive, but not unreasonable for someone who hadn’t installed a whole bunch of optics in the past. We cleaned and re-installed and no further issues occurred.

    The guy shooting the M&P/509T that I had installed days prior to the class had no issues, and other than the issues described, all other guns/ammo functioned fine.


    The next day we held a concealed carry class (designed for our undercover personnel) for a group of our custody deputies. This was sort of a “favor” to a former recruit. I had invited him to attend a concealed carry class set up for one of our undercover units but the unit cancelled the class at the last minute. I forgot to let him know and he showed up to a class that wasn’t happening. He told us that we could count on him getting enough people to do a class so we agreed and scheduled it. Most of the students, being pretty new, didn’t have optics, but one of the outside agency guys from the previous optic class came back for this one (he had a Glock/RMR) and my former recruit has one (M&P 5” / SRO).

    A quick digression. This former recruit went through the academy at what I would call an upper average shooter level. He had “shot” most of his life but wasn’t all that good and had some bad habits in the academy. He was, however, very inquisitive and enthusiastic. A couple months after he graduated, he contacted me and asked if he could come practice and run some drills, particularly from concealment since, being assigned to custody, most of the time he carried a gun was off duty. When he showed up and we started shooting I was shocked. He was GOOD. We ran a bunch of drills and I introduced him to the FAST test. His first run was a clean mid 5 seconds from concealment. F me.

    He’s disciplined, young, and wants to both learn and teach. I’m pretty damn proud of him.

    Back to the subject… This class doesn’t matter but for one thing. The optics worked great… except mine.

    I was running my Staccato C2 for the first time. I had mounted a DeltaPoint Pro and zeroed easily, shooting about a 1” group at 15 yards… Unusually good for me currently. As soon as we started demos of the courses of fire, everything was right… and by a fair amount up close. I went through the typical “what is going on” stuff and my frustration grew as the morning went on. By lunch my frustration was pinning the red.

    When we broke I stayed on the range and did some 25yd shooting… Everything was low and right. I put the gun on a bag at 15 yards and confirmed it. I adjusted to a solid zero and went back to 25 yards with good results. I chalked it up to getting used to a new pistol with a new different trigger and ate my lunch somewhat content.
    After lunch we returned to the range and started shooting. One drill we do during this class is the Pat MacNamara 500 aggregate. I had a decent group… high and left.

    What. The. Hell.

    While the students reloaded magazines I looked at the optic. The indicator marks hadn’t moved. The screws were still tight. I grabbed the optic and twisted right a bit. The dot had moved to the right. I twisted the other way… It moved left. I gave the gun to my partner and said to try it. He laughed and said “yep… it’s moving”.

    I’m not a fan of the DPP screws. I’ve heard rumor there have been quality issues. I’m not a fan of the Staccato DPP direct mount. I don’t know why they have the bosses on the rear right next to the screws as opposed to forward. That said, I’d ordered a few different screws from McMaster-Carr to see if they would work as replacements and after some experimentation I settled on some hex-drive flat head alloy steel screws. I torqued them to 30 in/lbs going incrementally from about 22in/lbs when re-installing the optic. I just used it for two days of a three-day contract optic instructor development course and it held zero just fine and shot great. I still don’t trust it and the plate is on the way to mount one of my SROs.

    I’ll continue to test the McMaster screws on another Staccato and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this issue. The McMaster screws have a larger head that sits proud of the base. It doesn’t affect the view through the window but makes indicator marking more difficult and doesn’t look “factory”. That said, I’m wondering if that additional material helps to lock everything in place without allowing deformation of the screw head. The head of the factory DPP screws are pretty small.


    So this brings up the last class to bring us current, which is the 3-day contract optic instructor development course. We had 19 students and pistols/optics were as follows:

    12 x Sig P320 / Romeo 1Pro
    Staccato P / RMR – Manual
    Staccato P / DeltaPoint Pro
    S&W M&P CORE / DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock / RMR – Auto
    Staccato / Holosun 507C
    Glock / RMR – Manual
    Glock / Holosun 507C

    In this class, we had a long classroom block on optic mounting and instructor development. During the mounting block anyone who wanted to remount their optic was encouraged to do so, and we had multiple slides available for the students to practice mounting optics. Several of the students took the opportunity to re-mount their optics.

    There were no optic mounting issues during the class. My big takeaway involved using a DeltaPoint Pro for the first time when exposed to water. I was shocked how quickly and easily it was rendered ineffective by the introduction of water droplets. I’m used to running other optics and this is another reason I’m going to the SRO on the Staccato. I still have a DeltaPoint on a Glock aftermarket slide fun-gun, but it’s not my preference for serious work.

  3. #113
    this thread is awesome - thanks to the contributors

    looking forward to hearing about these DPP screws

    could I ask for assistance in the preferred mounting method? I did not see it specifically stated in this thread.

  4. #114
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by Controlledpairs2 View Post
    this thread is awesome - thanks to the contributors

    looking forward to hearing about these DPP screws

    could I ask for assistance in the preferred mounting method? I did not see it specifically stated in this thread.
    This is how I do it...

    First, inspect the pistol to make sure it’s in policy (if applicable) and can accommodate the optic (does the person have the appropriate mounting plates, sealing plates if needed, accessories, raised iron sights, etc).

    Next, check the optic to make sure it works. I’ve had three or four RMRs that just didn’t work on arrival. Mounting an optic to find out it is defective is pretty frustrating.

    Now test fit everything without torquing. Does the optic fit the plate? The plate fit the slide? The screws work with the threaded surfaces? I’ve seen bad plates and bad screws. I’ve yet to see a bad optic or slide as far as fit is concerned, but let’s eliminate the possibility.

    Now we’ll prep everything by degreasing all interacting surfaces. That means the slide pocket, the threaded holes in the slide, the plate (if applicable) and any threaded holes in it, as well as the screws. You can use acetone, gun scrubber or other degreasing products, or what I use very often which is isopropyl alcohol wipes.

    Once dry you’ll apply your threadlocker... which is REALLY important. I use Loctite 248... This allows me to put the threadlocker where it needs to be without being excessive. It’s hard to give a really good direction on how much but I’d say you should apply a bit and use a finger while rotating the screw so the length of the engagement with the threaded hole has some Loctite applied but no Loctite globs outside the threads of the screw.

    Then tighten each side until you feel a bit of resistance. Then alternate tightening until you reach the torque spec you need. I’ve recently started at about 75% - 80% of whatever the spec is and then increasing the torque on the wrench to get to the specified amount. I’m too dumb for the engineering aspects of it - but torsional forces dissipate over time, so taking a bit of time to ramp up to full torque seems like it may be a good thing. It may be voodoo. I don’t know. That said, after a couple conversations and playing with the idea I’m starting to feel like it helps avoid some issues I’ve had in the past where a given torque spec was not ok and stripped or sheared screws resulted. I’ve also heard that getting to that specific torque value, even if lower than the “spec”, helps to condition or calibrate or whatever the torque wrench, so once at the given spec the wrench is more accurate. That maybe BS as well, so I welcome input there from people who know things.

    Once the screws are at spec, I mark the screws and optic with an oil-based paint pen. I put the paint from the pen on something like an alcohol swab wrapper or whatever, and then use a sharp toothpick to apply the paint to the optic screw and body. I get a nice clean line from the screw’s center to the optic body and let some run into the space between to know I have a good indicator of movement. This is NOT a way to lock the screws in place. That’s the job of the threadlocker. The paint tells me if the mounting failed, in which case I’d re-mount with new screws.

    Let it cure for at least 24 hours and then zero.

    This may be the way. It’s my way. I’m not sure it’s “the way”...but I’ve got a cup of coffee and a fold-up table and a sign that says “change my mind”.

  5. #115
    Many thanks SoCalDep for sharing this experience and knowledge.

  6. #116
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    USA
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    We had several issues with Staccatos from magazines failing to lock back to some extraction issues and the inevitable dirty/dry guns failing to feed, especially from slide lock when thumbing the slide release. What does this mean for Staccatos and my opinion of them? Well – I bought a C2 after the class. I’m experienced with 1911s and their finicky personalities, and the Staccato is simply a 9mm 1911 with some updates. It can be 100% reliable, but won’t always come out of the box 100% reliable. This can be frustrating but with patience they can be great guns. So far (knock on wood) my C2 is approaching 1,000 rounds with no malfunctions using duty and practice ammunition and no cleaning… just occasional application of lube.
    Have you noticed whether the Staccato lock back issue tends to happen more often with the 20 round extended magazines?
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  7. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    This is how I do it...

    [snip]

    This may be the way. It’s my way. I’m not sure it’s “the way”...but I’ve got a cup of coffee and a fold-up table and a sign that says “change my mind”.
    I’ve been an engineer for over 30 years solving issues like this, and teaching people how to solve them, and I would be hard pressed to articulate the right way to do this any better than you did. Well done, sir.

  8. #118
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by JSGlock34 View Post
    Have you noticed whether the Staccato lock back issue tends to happen more often with the 20 round extended magazines?
    So the short answer is yes but it’s more complicated than that. From what I hear there has been some issues with employee retention throughout the economy, and firearms related stuff is no different. I’ve heard that some 20rd magazines (from a vendor) have been supplied with 17rd springs and there was talk that the 20rd springs on some earlier generation mags were too weak... but some work great.

    The three 16rd C2 mags and five 17rd P mags I’ve been using (gen 3) have been flawless so far over maybe 1,000 rounds.

    Treat the Staccato like any other 1911 and test magazines and guns. If mags don’t work - get rid of them. If guns donw’t work, get them tuned and fixed. If you’re not sure, send the whole thing back and keep doing it until it runs 100%.

  9. #119
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by Archer1440 View Post
    I’ve been an engineer for over 30 years solving issues like this, and teaching people how to solve them, and I would be hard pressed to articulate the right way to do this any better than you did. Well done, sir.
    I’m humbled to hear this, especially since I’ve seen your posts that obviously show your expertise.

    In this theme though, I saw something new this week...

    There were some threads/posts a while ago here about the McMaster screws not fitting an M&P 2.0 Optic Ready/CORE slide. I sort of discounted that a bit until a day or two ago.

    I’ve been using McMaster screws on M&Ps for well over a year... and a pretty good amount of them. Enough that I’ve had to reorder them a few times (at 50-100 per pop) and just had to order another set because my supply was getting low.

    This slide wasn’t having it. I wasn’t going to force it (I tried probably 5-6 different screws) and would have have to force it a lot. I decided to try the factory-supplied CORE screws and while they worked, they were tighter than I would like and I’m surprised at how different the fit of this slide was compared to slides I’ve used in the past. It’s brand new but the older model with the very minimal front serrations (compared to the ones that go all the way up the sides of the slides.

    The right threaded hole in the slide was tight but OK with the McMaster screws... all of them. It was the left screw hole that caused the problems... This to me indicates a lack of consistency in the slide compared to the screws.

  10. #120
    Site Supporter HeavyDuty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Not very bright but does lack ambition
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I’m humbled to hear this, especially since I’ve seen your posts that obviously show your expertise.

    In this theme though, I saw something new this week...

    There were some threads/posts a while ago here about the McMaster screws not fitting an M&P 2.0 Optic Ready/CORE slide. I sort of discounted that a bit until a day or two ago.

    I’ve been using McMaster screws on M&Ps for well over a year... and a pretty good amount of them. Enough that I’ve had to reorder them a few times (at 50-100 per pop) and just had to order another set because my supply was getting low.

    This slide wasn’t having it. I wasn’t going to force it (I tried probably 5-6 different screws) and would have have to force it a lot. I decided to try the factory-supplied CORE screws and while they worked, they were tighter than I would like and I’m surprised at how different the fit of this slide was compared to slides I’ve used in the past. It’s brand new but the older model with the very minimal front serrations (compared to the ones that go all the way up the sides of the slides.

    The right threaded hole in the slide was tight but OK with the McMaster screws... all of them. It was the left screw hole that caused the problems... This to me indicates a lack of consistency in the slide compared to the screws.
    Can you chase the holes with a tap?
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...
    revchuck38: ...”mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire.”

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •