Can you cut a slot in what is left, and use a flat head to get it out?Originally Posted by MVS
Can you cut a slot in what is left, and use a flat head to get it out?
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Department issue?
Well I have done that in the past but usually on bigger screws or when they are sticking up above the surface. This broke off flush with the slide. It is a .119 tap drill so I would have to try to use a .031 cutter to put the flat in and set up and program the cnc to do it and probably still break cutters because you would have to plunge. It will be much easier to throw it in the Bridgeport, eyeball the center and peck a .093 carbide cutter down in and then hopefully use a trick or two to remove what is left
We had our first full PMO class this week at my agency. This was a three day class with about 2.5 worth of shooting. All guns were either Glock 17/19 Gen 5 MOS with Holosun 509 X2's on C&H plates. We had one previous class with all new firearms instructors who did fine but this was our first with officers who were a mix of shooters and non-shooters.
Of the 15 officers, 13 passed and will be allowed to carry the optic. One passed but decided he did not feel comfortable with the dot and was not convinced it improved his shooting. He was re-outfitted with his normal sights, re-zero'ed and qualified and was done about mid-day on day 3. One shooter left mid-day on day one for essentially fundamental shooting issues that the instructors felt would be a drag on the class. She agreed with that assessment and re-qualified with the normal set-up and went on about her day.
An important note is that we used SoCalDep's protocol for mounting and had zero sights/plates come loose. This is the first group that were all on this protocol and finally we have success. We had previously used what C&HPWS had suggested and those failed often. We did have two rear suppressor height sights work loose, they were re-installed, some blue loctite applied and we will keep an eye on them as each student must qualify monthly for a year after the class. We are doing that to ensure optics/plates stay put and to help with the transition.
I only stopped in each day for a couple hours but everyone seemed happy with the instruction and their new gear. At our agency the officer must purchase all of the items, we provide the gun and holster only. We felt this allows buy in from the officers and hopefully they take care of their gear since they paid. SWAT will run a class in May and then another general line class in August. I think we will keep the 3 day format but likely will allow officers who transition easily the option of whether they want to attend day 3 or not. This will only be with instructor approval based on if the minimums are covered and they have a good grasp. My instructors did that with some very accomplished shooters this week and it allowed for more individual time with officers who did not get it as quickly. Seemed to work out but we will see. They will still be required to shoot monthly however.
In this installment, we’ll discuss a few classes, some feedback from guys on patrol, mounting issues, and some optic evaluations that will be coming up soon.
Since my last post in mid-April, we did two pistol-optic classes and a firearm instructor school where most of the students ran optics.
The breakdown of the first pistol optic class with 14 students (two students from a bay-area police department and twelve from my department) is as follows:
3 x Glocks with Holosun 507Cs
2 x Staccatos with Trijicon RMRs (manual adjust)
1 x Staccato with Trijicon SRO
2 x S&W M&Ps with Trijicon SROs
2 x S&W M&Ps with Holosun 507Cs
1 x S&W M&P with Holosun 508T
1 x S&W M&P with Holosun 509T
1 x S&W M&P with Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1 x S&W M&P with Aimpoint ACRO P-2 (Aimpoint Plate)
The RMR on the Staccato came loose on day 1. The owner was a former student from a private firearm instructor school we taught back in February and his optic had come loose in that class. I had re-installed it using the same plate – slide screws since I don’t have any spares. The plate – slide screws came loose again in this class, which is something we see somewhat frequently with Staccatos. My partner was told directly from Staccato to use a VERY TINY bit of red Loctite for those screws and this practice has worked well. I’ve been hesitant to adopt the red Loctite idea, but this was the “I’ve seen enough” for me to go there. After the re-install there were no further problems with the pistol/optic during the class.
During the class I have the students check the optic to ensure it’s not loose. We do this a few times during the class and on the last check at the end of the last day the 509T on the M&P was loose. Upon removing the optic, a chunk fell off of the C&H plate where it had broken. This is a major problem with the old-version C&H plates and they have since re-designed them. I’m hoping the new design works better.
The 40-hr firearm instructor school was next with 14 students from multiple state and local agencies. Pistols/Sights were as follows:
3 x S&W M&Ps / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1x S&W M&P / Holosun 509T
2 x Glock / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1 x Glock 34 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
1 x Glock 17 / Trijicon SRO
1 x Glock 17 / Holosun 507C
1 x Glock 17 / Iron Sights* (Used a G17 with an RMR for the last two days – had never run an optic)
1 x Sig P320 / Holosun 507C
1 x Sig P320 / Romeo 1PRO
1 x Beretta 92LTT / Iron Sights
1 x Staccato P-DPO / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
The only pistol to have issues was the Sig P320 with the Holosun 507C mounted via a C&H plate. The optic came loose early in the class but I had no replacement screws so we had to re-install with the same screws that had been cut to a specific length so as not to press on the extractor assembly. The C&H screws that were originally supplied with the plate were too long. This is the second Sig P320 I’ve seen where C&H-supplied screws were too long and impeded function.
On the last day it came loose again, and one screw sheared even with the optic pocket. I was able to measure the other screw (the right one – same side as the extractor) with a caliper, which was 0.328”.
After getting in contact with the guys from the Sig Sauer Academy, I learned the slide is tapped for 6-40 screws, and based on the measurement, 5/16” length screws should work great for the Holosun – but McMaster only has 6-40 screws with .307” head diameter, and that’s too wide to reliably work with the Holosun optic body, and the closest length is 3/8”. I couldn’t find anything that would work at other web sites either except buying two-packs from C&H and measuring/cutting.
Since the RMR screws are generally 1/16” longer than Holosun, the McMaster 6-40 x 3/8” screws should work for the RMR/SRO in that application, and I’ll be picking some up to have on hand.
The other department pistol optic class also had 14 students, with our department as well as four outside local agencies represented. Several of those guys were from a well-known investigative unit and their professionalism and skill certainly matched their reputation. It was a fun class!
Pistols/Optics were as follows:
4 x Glocks (17s and 45s) / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
2 x Glocks (17 and 45) / Trijicon RMR (automatic adjust)
1 x Glock 17 / Holosun 508T
1 x Glock 45 / Holosun 507C
1 x Glock 45 / Aimpoint ACRO P-2
1 x Staccato C2-DPO / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
2 x S&W M&Ps / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1 x S&W M&P / Trijicon SRO
1 x S&W M&P / Holosun 507C
The only issue that occurred during this class was a Glock 45 that had its Forward Controls RMR plate come loose mid-way through day 2. When I pulled it off there was either no evidence of thread-locker. We reinstalled and there were no further issues.
I had one deputy in one of our in-service training classes come in with a loose optic (Trijicon SRO) on a Glock. When I pulled it off there was a lot of VC-3 on and around the plate and down into the threads in the slide. I ended up disassembling the slide because there was so much VC-3 it had run down into the extractor assembly. I cleaned it all up and re-installed. The deputy was going to wait the 24hr cure time for the Loctite and I haven’t heard back from him, so I assume things are going well or he hasn’t shot it yet (It’s not his primary duty gun). He had taken our optic class way back in early 2020 before we adopted the mounting procedures we use now and back when deputies mounted their own optics.
Another deputy contacted me yesterday to let me know that he's been averaging 7-9 weeks on a Duracell battery with his Holosun 509T X2 running it at full brightness on "dot only". He works a 1200-2200 shift so most of it is daylight and he dims the dot towards dusk/night. That seems like a pretty short battery life but a monthly change-out isn't the worst thing in the world.
Lastly (for now), in addition to the Bushnell RXS-250, we got the Steiner MPS in for testing. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but I mounted it and threw it in a freezer at -8 degrees Fahrenheit, waited an hour, and pulled it out into a 76 degree ambient room. The 84 degree temperature shift resulted in condensational frost mostly blocking the view through the window within around 30 seconds and completely blocking it within one minute. That said, as was the case when I tested the enclosed emitter ACRO and 509T, the dot never disappeared from view and was clear and distinct, meaning occluded-eye aiming would be possible even in extreme condensation situations.
Last edited by SoCalDep; 05-28-2022 at 04:39 PM.
Use E6000 on the plate to slide interface and you won’t need to do more with the screws.
It’s removable and works very well.
What is E6000 ?
I've heard the talk of E6000 and other products like JB Weld, and while they may be an improved mounting solution, I'm not convinced.
I'm concerned regarding the E6000 for the same reason I don't like plastic plates and VC-3. I want metal to metal contact with no movement. That's (and a good thread-locker) what keeps the screws tight. If the E6000, which is advertised as a flexible bond, allows vibration between the optic and mounting components, the screws may be more likely to come loose.
Since the compressive force placed on the epoxy is minimal (we're using inch-pounds unlike say a head gasket at high foot-pounds of torque) I'm not sure it's enough to prevent part separation and vibration between the components.
Of course, it may work great, but I'd need a large sample size with guns that aren't being used in the field before I'd trust it for duty use. Looking back on it now, our unit put almost 200,000 rounds through 36 optics during our evaluation and still didn't develop better mounting techniques until we saw failures over widespread use (like hundreds of pistol/optics).
In spite of my fairly extensive experience with VC-3 being horrible in the application of a thread-locker for pistol optics, it's still included and recommended by optic accessory manufacturers and even works sometimes (It worked during our Holosun 10,000 round test).
Red Loctite is a known product. It works great in preventing optics from coming loose. In fact, it works so well that our experience has been that if one isn't careful it can be an almost permanent bond. That's why I'm hesitant to use it unless really necessary... It works "too" good. In the case of the Staccato plate-slide screws, they are fairly beefy and the optic would be removed if heat needed to be applied for removal so I think it's the best solution for duty optics unless we can get a bigger sample size of things like E6000 or JB Weld.
After beginning to write this response I thought about taking one of our T&E optics off (we haven't started the live-fire test) and using the E6000 but each one has its own other factors that may contribute to coming loose. One optic is mounted with a plastic plate and screws from the bag supplied with M&Ps... that may or may not work with that particular optic's countersink, and the other is mounted with the Steiner MPS adaptor plate to the Glock #1 MOS plate so it would be hard to determine the cause if it comes loose. Those evaluations are going to be their own form of experimentation.
Maybe I'll grab one of our other T&E optic-host pistols and throw a spare DeltaPoint Pro on it with some E6000 to see if I can test the concept.
The E6000 was my plate to slide solution for a CZ shadow 2 OR that despite following recommendations for factory mounting would work loose like the Staccato.
It has worked great for 25,000+ rounds on that gun and on every other application I’ve used it for has worked as I wanted it.
It’s removable which is great but won’t come off unless you want it to.
The issue with slide to plate is that the fitment is often a little sloppy. So the screws feel the effects of sliding surfaces across each other. That’s where the E6000 works to prevent Micro sliding.
Even if you get “metal to metal” contact and properly torqued screws… my high round count optics always continue to see rub marks on the surfaces suggesting that shear forces continue to be an issue.
That’s the solution of E6000. It prevents that rubbing that often works screws loose. It’s not the compression, it’s the shear that’s the issue. Metal on metal still rubs.
I get it, but yours is a sample of one. I’m not discounting your experience and I’d like to try it, if only in specific applications. If it’s an improvement then that’s a good thing.
I simply won’t advocate for it without a bigger sample size and more testing. I switch guns a lot so my main training Glock 34 probably has the most through it at around 10k-15k rounds but we’ve got several guys running optics using our methods that are at 40,000 to 80,000 rounds. Some probably more. That doesn’t mean ours is the best way… it just means it’s a pretty reliable way.
I would also question the rub marks you describe. Was there rubbing and then loose screws, or did the screws come loose which allowed rubbing? Did mounting inconsistencies such as failure to degrease surfaces decrease friction and allow movement? What were the factory instructions and how might that have played into the optic coming loose?
Movement is the enemy and if the E6000 minimizes it reliably then I’m all for it.
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