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Thread: Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    "I’ve known this shooter for over thirty years. Aside from his L/E experience, he is a competent regional competitor. He has now expressed concerns about the current reliability, state of these systems."

    He has concerns about the entirity of all these systems, not just the Duo.
    Thanks for the timely response. This thread is great and I appreciate all the data and shared experiences.

  2. #42
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    On Monday & Tuesday (3/1 and 3/2), I taught a two-day pistol mounted optics instructor class for instructors from six New England L/E agencies – state police firearms training unit and SWAT team, the state’s other (city) police academy, and PDs.

    Day #1 was a wet cold in the 30s, while day #2 was a dry cold that started at 14F (“RealFeel” of 2F) and made it to 32F by the time we were done.

    I’ll apologize as I didn’t take the notes I usually do in a 3-5 day class.

    The only Aimpoint Acro on the line was mine, despite Aimpoint being present to support the class & answer questions the first day.

    No mechanical or electrical issues with the optics caused a student to lose training time. One aftermarket “custom” Glock had regular feeding, cycling problems. A lot of them!

    My best recollection of the guns/optics used include:
    Glock G45 / Holosun 507;
    Glock G45 / RMR;
    Glock G45 / RMR (for one day) and Beretta LLT 92 / RMR (for the other);
    Glock G19 / Leupold DPP;
    “custom” Glock G17 / RMR (this is the problem gun);
    Canik TP9 / Burris red dot;
    Glock G17/19s / RMRs (8 total);

    I wasn’t sure what the Canik/Burris combo would do, but it made through the two days and 550-600 rounds without issue.

  3. #43
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Update:

    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    One aftermarket “custom” Glock had regular feeding, cycling problems. A lot of them!
    This student called me yesterday. He determined the training magazines he was using had thousands of rounds through and the mag springs were significantly weaker than when new. He'll be replacing those springs.

  4. #44
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    This is a great thread! Thanks Erick for starting it and keeping it going!

    My department authorized pistol-mounted optics in January of last year. We've run a bunch of courses and I tracked all reported gun/ammo combos used during the first six months, though we now have around 200 personnel using pistol optics, this information does not include all of those people and does not include members of our Special Weapons Team or Weapons Training Unit, which had a bunch of pistols and optics.

    We had 110 guns tracked which included the following:

    34 M&P 9mm M2.0 CORE
    35 Glock MOS
    33 STI/Stacatto Duo pistols
    7 Sigs (A few Classic series optic guns and some P365XLs)
    1 Wilson Combat 1911 (with an ACRO)

    Optics included:

    74 RMRs
    13 SROs
    6 ACROs
    1 Sig Romeo 1PRO
    5 Sig Romeo Zeros
    11 Holosuns

    The following issues were reported in the field across all optics (I don't have the breakdown yet- haven't gotten that far in the report):

    3 batteries died (at least one was an RMR and I think one was an ACRO).
    9 optics lost zero, came loose, or stripped or sheared one or more screws. In each instance it was determined that improper mounting was the cause.
    3 optics experienced some level of window occlusion, though none were significant enough to prevent aquisition of the dot.
    3 Iron sights came loose or were lost.

    While we didn't track issues during training (we should have), we had more problems with Glock iron sights coming loose than we had with optics coming loose across all platforms.


    After reading this thread (again), I realized it would be a good idea to continue tracking gun/optic combos and potential problems, so I collected information from our last pistol optic class and a private contract class I taught for multiple law enforcement agencies this past weekend. Here's a summary of that information:

    Earlier this month we held a department pistol optic class (2-day, ~1,200 rounds) that was attended by several members of my department as well as two outside local law enforcement agencies, a federal law enforcement agency, and an active duty Army guy.

    Pistols/optics used were as follows:

    M&P CORE 5"/ RMR
    Staccato/ SRO
    Staccato/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato/ SRO
    Glock (Agency)/ RMR
    Glock/ Holosun 508T
    Beretta 92 Compact LTT/ Holosun 507C
    Glock/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock/ RMR
    Glock 34/ RMR
    Staccato/ DeltaPoint Pro
    M&P CORE 5"/ Holosun 508T

    There were no significant issues with any of the student's firearms. There were a few malfunctions in dry Staccatos on day 2 but nothing that wasn't rectified with a few drops of oil. Two optic issues occurred: The LTT plate to slide screws on the Beretta came loose half way through day 2. The optic was re-mounted and the student finished the class with no issues. One student's Holosun 508T-G started to malfunction on day 2. He'd draw and the optic would be "off". He'd have to hit the button to turn it back on and sometimes that took multiple attempts. We tried a new Duracell battery and ensured his optic was on manual and not automatic and the problem continued to plague him throughout the second day. Holosun is near us so he planned to go in and discuss the warantee issue with them.

    The biggest gun issues were my two Glocks (17 and 34 - both Gen 5) which experienced several malfunctions each. Apparently several months and many thousands of rounds without cleaning or lube makes for issues. I'm not used to that because my M&Ps and my earlier gen Glocks could just about go forever without any cleaning or maintenance. I think the issue might have been compounded by the use of our previous low-lead ammo that left a lot of primer sealant residue and unburnt powder/other particulates and our new practice ammo that leaves less particulate but more carbon buildup and residue. I wiped them down and added some oil and they've been running like normal ever since.



    This past weekend I, along with two other instructors, taught a private contract pistol-optic course (2-day, ~800-900 rounds) for multiple CA law enforcement agency personnel (at least five or six different local police departments) in another part of the state.

    Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

    Staccato/Holosun 507C
    Staccato/Holosun 507C
    Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
    Glock/RMR
    Glock/RMR Auto Adjust
    Glock/Vortex Venom
    Glock/Holosun 507C
    Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
    Glock/Holosun 508T
    Staccato/RMR
    Glock (Aftermarket frame, slide and barrel)/ Bushnell AR Optics First Strike 2.0
    Glock 43X/Holosun 507K (Day 1) and Staccato/Holosun 508T (Day 2)
    Staccato/Holosun 508T
    Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
    Sig P320/DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato/DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock/Shield RMS
    Glock/Holosun 508T
    Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
    Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
    Glock/DeltaPoint Pro

    Instructors (Day 1 - - - Day 2)
    M&P CORE 9mm/SRO - - - M&P CORE/Holosun 508T-G
    Glock 34MOS/SRO - - - M&P CORE/Holosun 508T
    Glock 17MOS/SRO - - - Glock 17 - Unity ATOM slide/Aimpoint ACRO

    There weren't many firearm related issues at all. The few malfunctions I saw seemed to be bad rounds, but I did notice that several students who (after being warned - habits are hard to break) racked the slide by manipulating the optic induced more complex malfunctions by blocking the ejection port with their hand. This is something we discovered recently because we teach not to manipulate the optic unless necessary.

    It wasn't until several recruits from a participating agency came to our academy having had prior training with their department, where they were taught to manipulate the optic. We saw lots of malfunctions and simple malfunctions turned into complex malfunctions because of this technique.

    One Glock had several malfunctions due to worn mags (he recently added extensions to old magazines with the same springs) - all other mags worked fine.

    One Glock had a Kagwerks slide release and I'm not sure it was that or his snazzy red baseplate extendo-mags, but his slide did not lock to the rear when he was pushing hard.

    The Staccatos ran like mad - I was impressed considering I've seen them really start to have issues if they get dry. I don't think I saw one malfunction.

    Optic Issues:

    The Vortex Venom ejected its window from the optic during the last drill on day 1. He'll be dealing with warranty service for that.

    One Romeo 1Pro's dot turned off and wouldn't turn back on. I was working with the student and could see she was "fishing" for the dot so I told her to find the front sight and align the iron sights. I saw her to continue to struggle so I asked if she could see a dot with the irons aligned. She said "no" so I asked to see her pistol and confirmed there was no dot. I hit each button several times and still no dot. I unloaded the pistol and after locking the slide to the rear I looked and the dot was back. We checked the battery cap and it was tight. The optic worked the rest of the day without failure. This is a bit interesting because the same thing happened to me during a Sig red dot instructor class back in Sept 2018 with a Romeo 1... I smacked the optic and the dot turned back on.

    The Bushnell started randomly turning off during the second half of day 2. The owner will be replacing it with something else.

    The auto adjust RMR and Shield RMS worked well in light and dark conditions but both shooters did not like how they performed with WMLs (to be expected).

    I was able to look at a Glock 43X up close for the first time and noticed that the threaded portion on the right side of the optic cut in the slide opens into the extractor plunger tube (not sure if correct term). This adds some mounting complexity in that this particular officer had filed away the rear bosses and filed down the front bosses to accomodate a Holosun 507K (this wasn't the one shooting the gun - he was asking about mounting screws on day 2 because he didn't have any of the right length). A screw too long could impede proper extractor function and prevent proper tightening, and excess threadlocker could also affect extractor function. Agencies and users should ensure they're using the proper length screws, be wary of people modifying their own guns, and be careful with the use of threadlocker (one of the reasons I really like Loctite 248).

    This week we're running a firearm instructor school and I know several of the students will have optics. The following week we'll be running another optic class so I'll try to record those combos as well and report on their performance.

  5. #45
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post

    My department authorized pistol-mounted optics in January of last year.
    @SoCalDep - Thanks for the addition!

  6. #46
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    Damn....didnt know you were up here with Randy! Sorry I missed you guys. One of our SWAT guys told me your partner was at our neighbor to the south teaching. It was my kids birthday, so I wasn't able to break away to give him a call. Will be doing that in the next few days to discuss Swiss Pistol issues....

  7. #47
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Damn....didnt know you were up here with Randy! Sorry I missed you guys. One of our SWAT guys told me your partner was at our neighbor to the south teaching. It was my kids birthday, so I wasn't able to break away to give him a call. Will be doing that in the next few days to discuss Swiss Pistol issues....
    Sorry I missed you as well. It was a really quick trip... took off after work on Thursday, taught Friday and Saturday, and burned it back Saturday evening. We’ll be back in the next few months though.

  8. #48
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    This past week we ran a 40-hr Firearm Instructor School (five days, ~700 pistol rounds) with fifteen students from seven Southern California local law enforcement agencies and one state agency.

    Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

    Glock 19/ RMR Dual-Illuminated
    Sig P320/ Iron sights
    M&P 2.0 CORE 5"/ Holosun 508T
    M&P 1.0 .40/ Iron sights
    M&P 2.0 CORE 4.25"/ RMR (manual adjust)
    M&P 2.0/ Iron sights
    Sig P226 Legion/Iron sights (day #1) and Sig Romeo 1PRO (mounted and zeroed for day #2 on...)
    Glock 34/ Iron sights
    Glock 22/ Iron sights (day #1) and a borrowed milled G22 slide with Holosun 407C for day #2 on...)
    Glock/ RMR (manual adjust)
    M&P 2.0 CORE Pro Series/ RMR (manual adjust)
    HK VP9/ Iron sights
    Sig P320/ Sig Romeo 1PRO
    M&P 2.0/ Iron sights
    M&P 2.0 CORE/RMR (auto-adjust)

    So, of the 15 students, 9 used an optic the majority of the time. There were no functional issues with any of the optics and the guns ran pretty well. There were a few bad rounds and at least one failure to extract (the M&P CORE Pro) but nothing that took a gun out of service. One guy who was trained to rack off the optic induced a couple more significant malfunctions trying to clear a bad round.

    During low-light, the RMR dual-illumination was useless when a weapon-light was in use. The shooter reverted to irons for all courses of fire except those that involved no weapon-mounted lights and when doing that he reported that the dim dot slowed him down. I'm not a fan of those models for serious use. A couple of shooters were unaware that the RMR reverts to auto-adjust after 16 hours so they got to experience that and didn't like it when using a WML.

    The shooter who borrowed the G22 slide had no experience with pistol optics prior to the class but was enthusiastic about trying it, partly for his own experience and partly because his department is looking at optics right now. He shot very well for never having used a dot and he's definitely embraced the "dot life".

  9. #49
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Last week we did another two-day pistol-optic certification class (~1,000 pistol rounds) with ten students from three Southern California local law enforcement agencies.

    Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

    Glock 34MOS (Gen4)/ Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato Duo/ RMR (Manual adjust)
    Glock 19MOS (Gen5)/ SRO
    M&P 2.0 CORE 9mm/ Sig Romeo 1Pro
    M&P 2.0 CORE 9mm/ RMR (Manual adjust)
    M&P 2.0 CORE 9mm/ Holosun 508T


    Most of the guns/optic ran well with two exceptions. The student with the Staccato/RMR experienced rapid dimming and then return to brightness early in day 2. At first I thought it might be that the RMR had reverted to auto-adjust but after ensuring that wasn't the issue and seeing the problem for myself I told him we better try a new battery (he was using the factory-provided Energizer). When I went to remove the optic I found that all four screws (optic-plate and plate-slide) were loose. He had installed the optic using Vibra-Tite VC-3 and had not degreased the surfaces (there was plenty of visible oil). We reinstalled the optic with a new Duracell battery and he ran the rest of the day with no problems... well... no problems with the optic. The pistol had a number of failure-to-extract malfunctions. It started with the practice ammunition we use (Winchester 115gr white box) and continued when we switched to our other practice ammo (Speer CleanFire 124gr). We switched him to duty ammo (Federal 147gr HST) and the malfunctions almost went away but not entirely. The pistol was cleaned prior to the class and properly lubricated. He's going to have our armorer (he knows and builds 1911s) look at it.

    One of the DeltaPoint Pros came loose on a Staccato on day #1. We re-installed it and it came loose again on day #2. At the end of the day the student noticed the indicator markings had moved again. He mentioned that he was informed (no confirmation) some DeltaPoint Pro screws may be too soft, and coupled with the Leupold torque spec of 25 in/lbs may be reaching plastic deformation/yield strength. In addition, there wasn't time for the loctite to cure since it was installed (twice) as the class was going. He's going to wait to re-install the optic until replacement screws arrive.

    I'm happy with the aftermarket screws for the other optics that we've sourced but I haven't been able to find any that would work with the Leupold where I think the holes in the optic are larger than the threads into the plate/slide. I also think 25 in/lbs is probably excessive. When we tested the the DeltaPoint Pro we used 12 and then 15 in/lbs on the S&W CORE because their screws didn't have a torque spec listed.

    The metal optic plates being supplied with new M&P CORE pistols (I saw two sets in the class this week) are the old style 1.925" plates, so they leave 0.05" more space at the front of the optic cut compared to the plastic plates and current C&H 1.975" plates. They fit VERY snug against the two cylindrical bosses in the slide and my jury is still out but I think they'll be an improvement over the plastic plate.

    Unrelated to the class we had an instructor who's Holosun 508T had come loose a couple weeks ago on his S&W CORE with the plastic plate. The left boss on the plate had been peened. I'm no fan of plastic plates and am happy to see new COREs are coming with metal plates again, though I don't know if this is across the board. He had ordered a plate from C&H Precision which arrived this week. I went to install it on Thursday and discovered machined "ribs" on the bottom of the plate that prevented the plate from being able to sit flush, and it sat slightly off center front/back. If the ribs were'nt holding it slightly off the flat of the slide I think we would have seen the plate angled up against the rear boss in the slide. He called C&H and they said that wasn't normal and he should send it back for a replacement.

    Summary: I think we've come a long way in developing mounting methods that cover a wide range of optic/gun combinations with good results, but we still don't have all the answers.

  10. #50
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Last week we did another two-day pistol-optic certification class (~1,000 pistol rounds) with seven students from three local agencies and one Federal agency.
    Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

    Staccato Duo/DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato Duo/DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock 19MOS (Gen5)/ RMRcc
    M&P 2.0 CORE/ Holosun 507C
    M&P 2.0 CORE/ Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
    Glock 34 (Gen5)/ RMR (Manual Adjust)
    Glock 47/ RMR (Manual Adjust)

    The guns all ran well. A DeltaPoint Pro came loose on a Staccato again. We had mounted it with 15in/lbs of torque to see if that might help after the issues we've seen recently (Not flying blind - S&W specs 15in/lbs to mount the DPP to the CORE using their screws). It didn't and the optic came loose after a couple hundred rounds (at most). We re-mounted and torqued to 20in/lbs and it was coming loose again by the end of the day. The user swapped with new screws sent to his Agency by Leupold and re-mounted the evening of day 1 with 25in/lbs of torque. On the morning of day 2 we zeroed with duty ammunition and the class progressed. Following the warmup (lots of 2" dots at 4 and 7 yards) and a "Super Test", the user noticed all of his shots were hitting pretty significantly left. I shot his Staccato and it was indeed shooting between 2" and 3" left at 10 yards. In addition, the dot was not in the same place where it was when he "co-witnessed" in the morning following zeroing. We checked the screws and they were still tight, and we couldn't perceive any movement in the optic. We re-zeroed, checked the co-witness with the irons and continued. Later in the day he noticed the dot had slightly shifted again though not as much. The optic was still tight. I think he's going to contact Leupold for warranty service.

    Following day 1, the person using the Glock 34 with RMR noticed the indicator markings had moved on his gun. He let us know on the morning of day #2. I couldn't perceive any movement in the optic on the slide, but when I turned the screw it moved easily and was certainly coming loose. It was mounted with a C&H Precision V4 metal plate and whoever mounted it (it was a borrowed gun from another person at his department) had used Vibratite VC-3. There wasn't a ton of it all over like the prior week's class, but there was enough around the tapered head of the screw and corresponding surface of the plate that I suspect it was likely the culpret because otherwise, mounting appeared to have been done well. I cleaned the VC-3 off with alcohol wipes and toothpicks and re-mounted using Loctite 248. It held for the rest of day 2. I picked up several replacement screw/t-nut sets from C&H but they were at home. I recommend anyone using one get at least a couple extra sets as well in case it comes loose, since the screws aren't the standard CORE/MOS type. In this case I would have replaced the screws and probably also the t-nuts just to be safe, but luckily the user caught the loose screw before the optic really had a chance to move around so they probably didn't receive too much excess force.

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