The MP5 and the FBI

[Coyotesfan97]

Unfortunately I never had an opportunity to shoot the MP5/10. I did use the MP5 and the MP5/40. Loved the MP5, HATED the MP5/40. Back in ‘97 I got to help order and set up the equipment for a future SWAT Team for my (at the time) agency. The Sheriff spent a buttload of $$$$. MP5/40 w/ C-More, AR w/ACOG or C-More red dot, tricked out 870 and a SV 2011 for each SWAT guy. HNT got the 2011s, but not all the long guns, IIRC. I got to test fire, mount and rough zero all the C-Mores on the MP5/40s. They would not run for shit. I called HK and they were like “ya, we know about the problem but you suck and we hate you but we will send you a replacement part (locking piece) that should fix the problem”. They never could get them to run right. Kept them for 20 years though.

I tried to get them to switch to the MP5/10, but they didn’t want to get 2 types of pistol ammo.

I’ve often thought the 10mm would shine in an SMG and would have loved to give it a whirl. Thanks for sharing.

I went through the old HK Intl training as a sub gun instructor. I love MP5s. If I was told I’d have to carry one again it wouldn’t break my heart. My favorite was the MP5SD.

Lon we had a neighboring agency that had MP5/40s which they’d give to their students to go through our SWAT school. They had mounted optics that interfered with their ability to slap the charging handle. The guns never ran right through multiple schools. It sounds like the same issue.

[TGS]

Great stuff, Bruce.

I feel cheated that my agency used the Colt SMG instead of the MP5 back when we still used SMGs.

How did you run the gun during entries? Bill Blowers did a video about the MP5 and talked about the model they used had a safety lever which wasn't easy to use, and so back in the 90s they were running with the gun off-safe. Was that common practice for you guys as well, or did you have different safety levers?

An MP5 is on my shortlist. I bought a GSL Phoenix in advance to mount on it, figured I'd find something I want while waiting for the Form 4.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Love the MP5/10--definitely my favorite SMG!

DocGKR:

Agreed. I think the MP5/10 was/is the pinnacle of submachinegun design.

Bruce

[BobM]

Unfortunately I never had an opportunity to shoot the MP5/10. I did use the MP5 and the MP5/40. Loved the MP5, HATED the MP5/40. Back in ‘97 I got to help order and set up the equipment for a future SWAT Team for my (at the time) agency. The Sheriff spent a buttload of $$$$. MP5/40 w/ C-More, AR w/ACOG or C-More red dot, tricked out 870 and a SV 2011 for each SWAT guy. HNT got the 2011s, but not all the long guns, IIRC. I got to test fire, mount and rough zero all the C-Mores on the MP5/40s. They would not run for shit. I called HK and they were like “ya, we know about the problem but you suck and we hate you but we will send you a replacement part (locking piece) that should fix the problem”. They never could get them to run right. Kept them for 20 years though.

I tried to get them to switch to the MP5/10, but they didn’t want to get 2 types of pistol ammo.

I’ve often thought the 10mm would shine in an SMG and would have loved to give it a whirl. Thanks for sharing.

The last time I went through MP5 armorer school was at GCSO. I gathered they didn’t seem too happy with the MP5/40. I seem to also remember a member of that team shooting IDPA or 3 gun with those 2011s. If I recall correctly, they didn’t run that great either.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Great write-up as always Bruce!

That 190 grain load was pretty darn accurate.

Lost River: That was our duty load. I imagine a bonded core bullet would be neat improvement over that load, but no one I worked with had any complaints about that load.

My first introduction to the 9mm MP5 was at FI school, U.S. Customs, at Ft. Bennington, GA, in 1997. Customs philosophy was that all FI’s were trained to instruct in all weapons in the inventory, whether you actually carried that weapon or not. The MP5 was a breeze to shoot and reliable. Nice report, Bruce.

Inspector 71: That was the philosophy in the Bureau too. An FI was expected to be able to teach all of our weapon systems; which allowed me significant trigger time on the Thompson Submachinegun

Unfortunately I never had an opportunity to shoot the MP5/10. I did use the MP5 and the MP5/40. Loved the MP5, HATED the MP5/40. Back in ‘97 I got to help order and set up the equipment for a future SWAT Team for my (at the time) agency. The Sheriff spent a buttload of $$$$. MP5/40 w/ C-More, AR w/ACOG or C-More red dot, tricked out 870 and a SV 2011 for each SWAT guy. HNT got the 2011s, but not all the long guns, IIRC. I got to test fire, mount and rough zero all the C-Mores on the MP5/40s. They would not run for shit. I called HK and they were like “ya, we know about the problem but you suck and we hate you but we will send you a replacement part (locking piece) that should fix the problem”. They never could get them to run right. Kept them for 20 years though.

I tried to get them to switch to the MP5/10, but they didn’t want to get 2 types of pistol ammo.

I’ve often thought the 10mm would shine in an SMG and would have loved to give it a whirl. Thanks for sharing.

Lon: The 10mm did shine in the MP5. As much as I am a hard core fan of the 9mm in the MP5 platform, the 10mm was a distinct improvement, at least in terms of power.

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Great stuff, Bruce.

I feel cheated that my agency used the Colt SMG instead of the MP5 back when we still used SMGs.

How did you run the gun during entries? Bill Blowers did a video about the MP5 and talked about the model they used had a safety lever which wasn't easy to use, and so back in the 90s they were running with the gun off-safe. Was that common practice for you guys as well, or did you have different safety levers?

An MP5 is on my shortlist. I bought a GSL Phoenix in advance to mount on it, figured I'd find something I want while waiting for the Form 4.

TGS:

Whenever we did entries, we ran them on safe. Our MP5/10s all had the short safety selector levers. All you had to do, was roll the gun over a bit (inboard to the shooter) to get a purchase on the selector lever, then disengage it and mount the gun and go to work. I recall Ken Hackathorn taught this technique (as an aside, Ken is a true master of the MP5). Some folks just used the LEFT hand side of the selector lever and disengaged it with the thumb of their right hand. I observed an FBI MP5SD (9mm suppressed version) that had extended safety selector levers. I probably could have finagled a set, but by then the wholesale transition to the M4 was underway.

So once the Form 4 is approved, you are going to post photos to appease the PF Gods, correct? By the way, this post is all your fault as I recall you mentioned something about me posting stuff about the MP5.

Bruce

[Gadfly]

I was issued the MP5 for 7 years... had to give it up for an M4. The Guns we had were date coded for the early 80s, and were pretty well beat to shit by 2010 when we were handing them in. I loved mine and found it an excellent gun to carry, especially while seated in my car. Sling low, barrel pointed at drivers door, 30 round mag between my legs, stock collapsed. I could open the car door, and yank that stock out in under 2 seconds. My m4 is just too bulk to ride like that (even at 11.5”), so it rides muzzle down in the passenger seat, and is a little slower to bail out with.

I got to run them in instructor school at Ft Benning, and at armorers school in Altoona PA. In Altoona, we got to have a “fun day” of shooting all the guns in inventory, including guns purchased for testing and never adopted. So we got time on the MP5/40, UMP in various calibers, 8.5” HK 33s, Uzis, etc. After several mags through all of those, there was a clear reason the MP5 was chosen. It is hands down a better gun. Are there better triggers? Yes. Are there better ergonomics and better manual of arms? Yes. But the total package and experience of shooting? The MP5 is almost cheating.

We just hit our first batch of issued MPXs. The last 3 MP5s in the office are going away. The MPX is good. Great trigger, ergonomic AR safety. Will it run like the HK did? We shall see....

For now, I still run the M4 with an H1 micro.

(Side note, if a that PSA MP5 rip off is worth a crap (which I am not optimistic about) I may have to have one...)

[Lon]

Great stuff, Bruce.

I feel cheated that my agency used the Colt SMG instead of the MP5 back when we still used SMGs.

How did you run the gun during entries? Bill Blowers did a video about the MP5 and talked about the model they used had a safety lever which wasn't easy to use, and so back in the 90s they were running with the gun off-safe. Was that common practice for you guys as well, or did you have different safety levers?

We ran ours off safe. Basically when you bailed out of the raid van and stacked up, the safety came off. Went back in when you were done. The ergos definitely sucked. When we transitioned to AR SBRs, there was some wailing and nashing of teeth By the old school guys when I made them run them safety on until you have to take a shot. But after putting them on a timer to show the negligible time difference they got over it.

[Lon]

The last time I went through MP5 armorer school was at GCSO. I gathered they didn’t seem too happy with the MP5/40. I seem to also remember a member of that team shooting IDPA or 3 gun with those 2011s. If I recall correctly, they didn’t run that great either.

The first SWAT commander they had - Larry F - was a master class USPSA shooter. As far as I know GCSO was the first agency to ever issue a 2011 as a duty weapon. As long as Larry was there to do the maintenance on the 2011s, they ran fine. After he retired no one new WTF they were doing maintenance wise and they started to have problems. They also put ALOT of ammo through them. Those guys still haven’t forgiven me for accidentally screwing them out of being able to buy them for $350 each when they went to trade them in. It was an accident, really.

[S Jenks]

The new Magpul ESK ambi levers are a huge improvement if you’re used to running an AR safety. I just installed it on my PTR-9C and it’s easy to flip when shouldered.