St Paul/Minneapolis Riots Aftermath

[SD]

My interest and question with the shield, there have been 2 recent videos ( NYC/ Vegas PD) search warrant swat videos using shields effectively. Is it now common in the swat community to see these deployed for this application, reading the responses posted leave me to believe it is NOT a common practice currently. My language in these posts as is my intent is not to come off accusatory or finger pointing, this is a tragic event no-one benefits.

[SouthNarc]

My interest and question with the shield, there have been 2 recent videos ( NYC/ Vegas PD) search warrant swat videos using shields effectively. Is it now common in the swat community to see these deployed for this application, reading the responses posted leave me to believe it is NOT a common practice currently. My language in these posts as is my intent is not to come off accusatory or finger pointing, this is a tragic event no-one benefits.

Shields aren’t new. I used them in the 90s when they were applicable. And then they became overused.

Everything ebbs and flows in the world of tactics and a lot of things get “rediscovered”.

[Old Man Winter]

How is the neighborhood in general?

When I hear renovated building and hipster types I’m thinking what I’ve come to know is “urban pioneers” I.e. hipsters that are early moving into a rough neighborhood in the process of “gentrification.” It generates some very interesting mixes.

Downtown Minneapolis is about the same regardless of where you are. Extensive revitalization with tons of renovated structures, new buildings and high-end apartments / condos are constantly going up. With few exceptions you have to leave downtown proper to find bad areas. This incident took place near several popular restaurants, hotels, parking structures, office buildings, and the big convention center. There are some ultra high-end condos nearby. It's located in the southern edge of downtown and eight lanes of I-94 separates it from residential neighborhoods to the south.

The urban pioneer / gentrification thing happened downtown 15-20 years ago. More recently it has been happening on the outskirts of downtown such as the area made famous by saint floyd of fentanyl's peaceful protest in 2020.

[TGS]

Is it now common in the swat community to see these deployed for this application, reading the responses posted leave me to believe it is NOT a common practice currently.

It is and it isn't. Every tactical team is going to have shields and have guys trained/designated on them, but whether they're used on a given op is a separate discussion.

It's also irrelevant to the topic/incident at hand. Using a shield would not have changed the outcome of this incident.

Note: Just to qualify my statements, I'm not on a tactical team. I received training on shields from a US Marshals regional fugitive task force for the purposes of my job in serving warrants.

[Le Français]

I’m pretty sure my team would’ve done a surround and call out on this. 15 years on SWAT and I never participated in a no knock. We had warrants written that authorized them but the team leaders didn’t want to do it. A no knock for us would be a hostage rescue scenario or a kidnapping/trafficking scenario.

That's interesting; I had heard (from Officer C. Palmer, I think) that the area where you worked had a very large amount of trafficking-related unlawful restraint/kidnapping situations, and that the tactical team there racked up a lot of rescues related to that. I had assumed they were primarily no-knocks.

There would be explosive breeches

Hahaha! Where is @blues when you need him?

[TC215]

My team rarely used shields inside. Personally I hated them inside. For me they made it too hard to move. We might carry one up to the door but it was left outside. Some teams use them all the time.

Good god rifle shields are heavy and unwieldy. We used them for cover for the immediate action team. Even the ones on wheels sucked getting them into position. Maybe the newer models are more lightweight.

My team had Tac medics that we’d call out for operations. The FD tried to have four on A, B, and C shift. If they weren’t available we had a fire truck and an ambo staged while we did the operation.

I’m pretty sure my team would’ve done a surround and call out on this. 15 years on SWAT and I never participated in a no knock. We had warrants written that authorized them but the team leaders didn’t want to do it. A no knock for us would be a hostage rescue scenario or a kidnapping/trafficking scenario. There would be explosive breeches, window rake and breaks, and numerous LSDDs deployed on execution. Our entry commands were “Police Get Down!” HRTs were our only dynamic entries.

Not a fan of shields, either. My old team got away from using them on everything years ago. I prefer to dump them at the front door where someone can grab it quickly when needed.

If a modified surround and call-out was done on this, and it turned into a barricade and the apartment building had to be gassed, people would raise hell about that, too. I may have leaned towards breech and hold on this.

I’ve written numerous no-knocks as a detective, and served several on SWAT. That was before the trend of getting away from dynamic entries on everything caught on in my area. Luckily, we never had one go sideways, but I do believe they have their place. And they’re certainly impressive when doing an explosive breech. But, no-knocks are against the law here now, so I don’t really have to worry about it anymore.

The only time I’ve seen a Bearcat entry was on a joint op with an FBI team, and it was awesome.

[WDR]

If you are you practicing John Farnham's principle of avoiding stupid people, stupid places and stupid things you are differentiated from the deceased.

Unfortunately, that principle didn't apply to my case outlined previously. My only association with the person they were looking for was happening to buy the house he previously resided in, 1-2 years before the 4AM knock on the door. Which really brings home the "it could happen to me" that some of us are talking about. I'm sure the officer on the other side of the door didn't want my pistol pointed in his general direction, and would have acted on that, had he seen me.

Again, there are legitimate reasons for using these tools. Unfortunately, sometimes if you are holding a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. Society should avoid such things where they can. This isn't commentary on the MN case... I don't know the details, and I'm sure they'll come out eventually. It certainly looks bad, and wont help the situation there, even if it comes out that the deceased had some connection to the guy they were hunting for, and therefore a reason to react poorly, and get shot in the process.

[WDR]

But what happens when your address is the address on record for a scumbag? Even if you have kicked them out months (or even years) before, and they're still using your address?

That is what happened to me here. We *still* get mail years later, and occasionally someone coming knocking looking for "scumbag"... And I never even met the guy.

[Coyotesfan97]

Unfortunately, that principle didn't apply to my case outlined previously. My only association with the person they were looking for was happening to buy the house he previously resided in, 1-2 years before the 4AM knock on the door. Which really brings home the "it could happen to me" that some of us are talking about. I'm sure the officer on the other side of the door didn't want my pistol pointed in his general direction, and would have acted on that, had he seen me.

Again, there are legitimate reasons for using these tools. Unfortunately, sometimes if you are holding a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. Society should avoid such things where they can. This isn't commentary on the MN case... I don't know the details, and I'm sure they'll come out eventually. It certainly looks bad, and wont help the situation there, even if it comes out that the deceased had some connection to the guy they were hunting for, and therefore a reason to react poorly, and get shot in the process.

That is what happened to me here. We *still* get mail years later, and occasionally someone coming knocking looking for "scumbag"... And I never even met the guy.

They’ll use a previous address for years. If there was ever a doper selling at an address the dopers will be knocking on the door for years after seller leaves.

[HCM]

Unfortunately, that principle didn't apply to my case outlined previously. My only association with the person they were looking for was happening to buy the house he previously resided in, 1-2 years before the 4AM knock on the door. Which really brings home the "it could happen to me" that some of us are talking about. I'm sure the officer on the other side of the door didn't want my pistol pointed in his general direction, and would have acted on that, had he seen me.

Again, there are legitimate reasons for using these tools. Unfortunately, sometimes if you are holding a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. Society should avoid such things where they can. This isn't commentary on the MN case... I don't know the details, and I'm sure they'll come out eventually. It certainly looks bad, and wont help the situation there, even if it comes out that the deceased had some connection to the guy they were hunting for, and therefore a reason to react poorly, and get shot in the process.

Hence why I’m not a fan of no knock warrants outside the scope of the rescue of persons.

While the deceased could have a reason to “react poorly” regardless of connection to the homicide that sparked the search warrant I don’t think his reaction is necessarily the issue.

I’m more interested in why he was in that apt and why he felt the need to be sleeping with a gun either in hand or under the blanket with him. Those are the things (from his side) which set the stage for what happened.