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Thread: How light is "too light" for a carry gun trigger?

  1. #11
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    My Browning Hi-Power has a 4.5# trigger.

    My HK USP45C has the light LEM which is around 4.5 #. Anything less than that would be too light IMO.

    My HK P30 is a V2 with a nominal 7.3# pull, but I haven't tested it. As soon as I get the springs, I plan on converting it to the "ToddG special". I was going to convert it to a V1, with a nominal 4.5# trigger, but I'm thinking I'd like something slightly heavier in a defensive handgun.
    --
    Formerly hombre gris
    I am no longer LEO, never .MIL. I am .DAD and my attitude will reflect that.
    Cogito ergo armatus sum -- I think, therefore I am armed

  2. #12
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    My P30 V1 is 5.5 lbs.

    With Todd's spring combination, it's 6.5 lbs.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    however my lightened carry glock still has the same long glock pull.
    Shoot a LEM P30 for a while, you'll never again think that Glock has a long pull.

  4. #14
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    5.5 # would be nice. I may have to try both when I get the springs and see what I like the best. I'm not looking forward to replacing the TRS though.
    --
    Formerly hombre gris
    I am no longer LEO, never .MIL. I am .DAD and my attitude will reflect that.
    Cogito ergo armatus sum -- I think, therefore I am armed

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hombre gris View Post
    I'm not looking forward to replacing the TRS though.
    I didn't think the TRS was a big deal. I put tape around the front of the trigger guard and around the back of the trigger to keep it forward. I use a pair of needle nose pliers (wide jaw) and can change them out in about 90 seconds.

  6. #16
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV View Post
    My P30 V1 is 5.5 lbs.

    With Todd's spring combination, it's 6.5 lbs.
    Coming from a revolver background I would love a smoooooth consistent 6.5 pound trigger, that didn't stack somewhere along the way.

    With regards to what is the lightest acceptable trigger pull for a self defense weapon, 30 plus years of watching from the sidelines (fortunately none of my students or myself have been in the hot seat), I defer to a few folks I've come to respect over the years. They sit on several boards for different training associations, one is a Harvard/Yale trained lawyer and several do the expert witness thing for our side of the issue.

    They are of the opinion your trigger weight should never be less than manufactures specs. The reason they give is that you will be hard pressed to convince a jury of non gun owners that you knew more/better than Gaston, S&W, Ruger and alike in a civil or criminal wrongful death/injury trial. That reasoning makes logical sense to me.

    Someone posted earlier that weren't manufactures making triggers overly heavy for liability reasons. I personally think that to use that line of reasoning as your defense for "lightening the trigger pull of your weapon" wouldn't fly very far, or at all in a liability or a criminal trail.

    My take on the matter is this, If and When I get in a self defense shooting I want the triers of the facts and the jury to concentrate on whether it was a good shoot. I do not what to give anyone possible side issues that they can introduce into the fray to cloud the matter in the eyes of the jury. By not giving them issues to work with you force them to concentrate on the actual facts as to whether it was a good shoot or not.

    Our criminal & civil justice system is no doubt the BEST in the world, but is is operated by fallible human beings. Until it is run by an impartial computer that takes in only the facts and spits out a decision, you have Judges, Prosecutors and Jury members who bring their failings, political leanings and predigests to the table that have in the past and will in the future skew trial out comes.

    So when people tell my that they want to lighten the trigger below factory specs I gently advise them that maybe more time spent mastering the trigger could save them a lot of grief later.
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rsa-otc View Post
    Coming from a revolver background I would love a smoooooth consistent 6.5 pound trigger, that didn't stack somewhere along the way.

    With regards to what is the lightest acceptable trigger pull for a self defense weapon, 30 plus years of watching from the sidelines (fortunately none of my students or myself have been in the hot seat), I defer to a few folks I've come to respect over the years. They sit on several boards for different training associations, one is a Harvard/Yale trained lawyer and several do the expert witness thing for our side of the issue.

    They are of the opinion your trigger weight should never be less than manufactures specs. The reason they give is that you will be hard pressed to convince a jury of non gun owners that you knew more/better than Gaston, S&W, Ruger and alike in a civil or criminal wrongful death/injury trial. That reasoning makes logical sense to me.

    Someone posted earlier that weren't manufactures making triggers overly heavy for liability reasons. I personally think that to use that line of reasoning as your defense for "lightening the trigger pull of your weapon" wouldn't fly very far, or at all in a liability or a criminal trail.

    My take on the matter is this, If and When I get in a self defense shooting I want the triers of the facts and the jury to concentrate on whether it was a good shoot. I do not what to give anyone possible side issues that they can introduce into the fray to cloud the matter in the eyes of the jury. By not giving them issues to work with you force them to concentrate on the actual facts as to whether it was a good shoot or not.

    Our criminal & civil justice system is no doubt the BEST in the world, but is is operated by fallible human beings. Until it is run by an impartial computer that takes in only the facts and spits out a decision, you have Judges, Prosecutors and Jury members who bring their failings, political leanings and predigests to the table that have in the past and will in the future skew trial out comes.

    So when people tell my that they want to lighten the trigger below factory specs I gently advise them that maybe more time spent mastering the trigger could save them a lot of grief later.


    Is there any relevant case law that would pertain to your statements?

  8. #18
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    The issue of a "too light" - hair trigger - is one of negligence.

    Simply put, self defense is an intentional act.

    Deliverately shooting someone is a criminal act, but is excused because of cricumstances in a particular case which make it self defense. That is the heart of a justification defense - I did it, but had a good reason for doing it, and therefore I'm not a criminal even though I did what the law ordinarily forbids.

    You cannot negligently injure someone and call it self defense. Negligence is by definition an act that a person excercising due care does not do.

    As you are required to act with due care while defending yourself, injuring another person, even a bad one, by accident, is not self defense - and therefore a criminal act, and a civil tort.

    A too light trigger in and of itself does not turn a good shoot into a bad one; however, it allows for:

    #1 Mistakes on your part;
    or
    #2 The plausable allegation of a mistake on your part.

    Either is bad.

    "Good shoots gone bad" are the result of a combination of factors, real or implied.

    A trigger lighter than what the industry standard accepts into can be make a very nice hook to hang a negligent discharge theory on...one that may be accepted by a finder of fact depending on the circumstances, and negates self defense.

    A trigger which is smooth, short, positively resetting and consistant is not a problem.

    But "light"? It can be a problem.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenaniguns View Post
    Is there any relevant case law that would pertain to your statements?
    That's a misleading internet argument.

    Their are 50 states each with their own bodies of caselaw, some in concurrance, others in contradiction.

    Then the federal system, not all of it is in concurrance either.

    Further, only about 1% of cases go to trial, and not all of those decissions make it into law journals which are easily serachable by index, only those which are appealed and a decission written on them are so indexed.

    Thus, something may not be in caselaw or have caselaw on it, but that does not mean their is a void scholarship on the subject in the form or law review articles, industry guidelines or the common course of practice in a given activity which has authority.

  10. #20
    Not sure if this trail will count as I think the big debate was cocking the hammer but it does mention cutting some coils.
    Alvarez Trial

    To me it's a personal choice do as you like. I'm Not a Lawyer but to me I think it depends on how gun friendly your state is and how much you want to spend to defend yourself. I think it gives someone the chance to divert attention to your light trigger instead of the major facts. Fun exercise is to debate this with your wife or friends that are not gun savvy and see how it goes as more then likely most your jury is going to be people like this.

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