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Thread: How light is "too light" for a carry gun trigger?

  1. #21
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenaniguns View Post
    Is there any relevant case law that would pertain to your statements?
    Case Law, I'll try to find the time to look it up the cases. The fact is as my company's instructor I've watched the legal liability issues with a vested interest for going on 30 years. I have watched and read about people going to jail or losing their homes because of ridiculous things that have gone wrong in a trial. Judges who wouldn't let evidence in for the wrong reasons, prosecutors who have misrepresented evidence.

    Emanuel Kapelshon the Harvard/Yale trained lawyer who also is a Internationally recognized firearms expert/trainer, sits on the boards of a couple of training associations and does the expert witness thing calls it - BAD things happen to GOOD people.

    You have to remember prosecutors don't get credit for letting people off, but convictions, Plaintiff attorney's only make the big money by winning cases with large payouts. Do you have to ask what their motivations are? What are they willing to do to win. Be FAIR to you the defendant?

    I'm not trying to be antagonistic just want you to see where I'm coming from.

    I don't want to become CASE LAW. As I said I want the jury to deal only with the real merits of the case, not side issues that the prosecution or plaintiffs add in to make the jury see me in a negative way and find against me. Prosecutors and Plaintiffs have used such things as the guns "OVERLY LARGE/POWERFUL" caliber, amount of extra ammo, and how light the trigger is to paint the defendant as a bad person.
    Last edited by rsa-otc; 03-18-2011 at 03:08 PM.
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  2. #22
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennzoil View Post
    Not sure if this trail will count as I think the big debate was cocking the hammer but it does mention cutting some coils.
    Alvarez Trial

    To me it's a personal choice do as you like. I'm Not a Lawyer but to me I think it depends on how gun friendly your state is and how much you want to spend to defend yourself. I think it gives someone the chance to divert attention to your light trigger instead of the major facts. Fun exercise is to debate this with your wife or friends that are not gun savvy and see how it goes as more then likely most your jury is going to be people like this.
    Yes the Alvarez case revolves around the "misrepresentation" that Alvarez cocked the weapon creating a "hair trigger" and the gun accidentally went off. Cases like this are what drove PD's to render the weapons DA only and look only at weapon that have a DA like trigger when moving to Autos. From my understanding the LA PD rendered their revolvers DA Only back in the late 60 early 70's in response to this trend.

    It has been suggested that you try the "Auntie" test. Give your weapon to your Grand Ma, Mother in Law, Auntie or some other non gun person. Let them try your trigger. If you get a negative reaction from them (Ohh that trigger is really light) you will get a feel of how the jury is going to see it.

    Really is there in real life a unsurmountable difference between 3.5 and 5.5/6.5 pounds of trigger pressure. We're not talking about shooting dime size groups at 50 feet.

    Is it really worth the chance?
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    a Glock has no manual safety. this does not bother people, as the pull (for this example) is about 5# and relatively long and double action-ish.
    I haven't read through the rest of the thread yet, but wanted to address this on two levels.

    First, you're absolutely right. Up until they switched to the Glock, FBI's firearms instructor school used to include a study in which it was determined that trigger pull length played a bigger role in preventing ADs than trigger pull weight. As you rightly pointed out, someone can push through a heavy but short trigger pull very fast under stress, and the difference of a few pounds trigger pull in that instance probably won't matter.

    Second, you're absolutely wrong. The Glock trigger is actually fairly short in its movement compared to typical DAO guns. As such, it's already running at a disadvantage (see point #1 above). Now you combine that with a trigger pull that is very light and you're reducing your margins to the point where many people with experience pointing guns at other people would tell you it's gone too far.

    FWIW, I shot Tom Jones's BE-1000 drill -- which I'd put up against even the Humbler in terms of difficulty, with substantially smaller scoring zones on the slow fire portions -- today using a brand new Glock 17 with stock (unpolished, untreated) parts, a - connector, and a NY trigger spring. Trigger pull was probably around 7#. I scored 835 - 9X, which Tom tells me is respectable.

    Could I have shot a little better with a lighter trigger? Maybe, maybe not. But I do know this: if I'd spent all my time practicing with a 3.5# trigger and then tried to shoot the drill with the 7# trigger, I'd have made an ass of myself.

    For the little extra effort it takes to run a heavier trigger, you get the benefit of greater safety as well as being forced to learn your marksmanship fundamentals that much better.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter gringop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Could I have shot a little better with a lighter trigger? Maybe, maybe not. But I do know this: if I'd spent all my time practicing with a 3.5# trigger and then tried to shoot the drill with the 7# trigger, I'd have made an ass of myself.

    For the little extra effort it takes to run a heavier trigger, you get the benefit of greater safety as well as being forced to learn your marksmanship fundamentals that much better.
    My comment on this,

    I started my serious pistol training with a 1911 running a 3.5 lbs trigger. I had plenty of experience (but no training) running other pistols, a GP100, an HK USD compact 40, a Sig 228 but with the 1911 I could finally HIT the target and shoot well.

    Then I started attending training classes. After seeing even more improvement with the light trigger 1911, I bought a used G19 and decided I was good enough to learn to shoot a crappy triggered gun. Also at the time we had Pin matches that had rules that favored revolver shooters. I bought a S+W 45 LC revolver and started doing well at Pin matches. Fast forward to the present and I'm shooting an IDPA match tomorrow with my J-frame.

    The point of all this history is that I believe that newer inexperienced shooters discover the joys of a good, light trigger and believe that it is the key to shooting well, whether it is practice, competition, or self-defense. I know that I did at that level.

    I have students that struggle with crappy triggers (Bursa and Taurus double actions) and I want to show them the possibilities of what can be achieved with a good trigger. Yet how do I keep them from being seduced by the rosy glow of the 3.5lbs SA trigger.

    How do you look a student in the eye and say "for litigation reasons you need to learn to shoot a moderately crappy trigger"?

    Gringop

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gringop View Post
    How do you look a student in the eye and say "for litigation reasons you need to learn to shoot a moderately crappy trigger"?
    I'm far more concerned about accidentally shooting myself or others than I am about the legal ramifications of a light trigger.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gringop View Post
    How do you look a student in the eye and say "for litigation reasons you need to learn to shoot a moderately crappy trigger"?
    Gringop
    You don't. You look them in the eye and say "literally thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of people do not find that trigger to be crappy or an impediment to good shooting. Learning to shoot includes learning to shoot with a trigger that is considered normal by most. If you have to have a special trigger on your gun to shoot it properly when so many others don't you probably need to find a different gun."
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"

  7. #27
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
    You don't. You look them in the eye and say "literally thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of people do not find that trigger to be crappy or an impediment to good shooting. Learning to shoot includes learning to shoot with a trigger that is considered normal by most. If you have to have a special trigger on your gun to shoot it properly when so many others don't you probably need to find a different gun."
    Excellent response. I was going to go with Mission drives equipment. If your mission is shooting dime size groups on paper at 50 feet then 3.5 lbs crisp is good. If your mission is self defense then manufactures specs rule the day.

    Don't give me that better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6 crap. First if I didn't mean to shoot the person but did because of my overly light trigger I don't know if I could live with myself. Secondly you have to not only survive the shooting but also the legal aftermath as well. Also I don't want bubba as my boyfriend (go to jail), nor do I want to pay some dirt bag or his family my life's savings and/or a payroll deduction the rest of my life either. Just because I couldn't be bothered to learn how to operate a 5.5 lb trigger.
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  8. #28
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    Great Thread... Has Me Reconsidering

    I had planned on changing the springs of my V2 P30 to give me a V1 trigger. This would more closely match that on my USP45c. Now I think I change the springs on the USP and get a heavier trigger on that...
    --
    Formerly hombre gris
    I am no longer LEO, never .MIL. I am .DAD and my attitude will reflect that.
    Cogito ergo armatus sum -- I think, therefore I am armed

  9. #29
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hombre gris View Post
    I had planned on changing the springs of my V2 P30 to give me a V1 trigger. This would more closely match that on my USP45c. Now I think I change the springs on the USP and get a heavier trigger on that...
    Dude - If you like the V1 option which correct me if I'm wrong is the light LEM. Why not try the Todd Special. As I understand it, it is heavier then the factory spec and yet has some other pluses.

    I've shot double action only revolvers for years and have never had an issue with being either accurate or fast.
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  10. #30
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    I'm actually considering the "ToddG Special". I'm just not in quite a big of a hurry to change things after reading this as I was before.
    --
    Formerly hombre gris
    I am no longer LEO, never .MIL. I am .DAD and my attitude will reflect that.
    Cogito ergo armatus sum -- I think, therefore I am armed

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