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Thread: Optic help!

  1. #11
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTS View Post
    You’re right. Just keeping to the list the OP was referencing. I’ll find the podcast I was referring to.



    It is. He loved the gen II and the III even more. He discusses here https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/vortex...e-yeti-fisher/
    I was referring to the OP’s list.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #12
    Member Paladin's Avatar
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    SLC, UT
    I really haven’t the slightest on what is best that’s why I’m asking for help from the pros here, I really want to get the best currently available and have tried to read and research and I was just about settled on the Kahles K16i and then started seeing info on the benefits of first focal plane vs 2nd and that started the confusion all over again. So advice and the why behind it would be greatly appreciated.
    God Bless,
    Rick
    Brave men defend themselves, braver men defend loved ones, Warriors defend strangers fools wait! The bravest man I know John 3:17!

  3. #13
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
    I really haven’t the slightest on what is best that’s why I’m asking for help from the pros here, I really want to get the best currently available and have tried to read and research and I was just about settled on the Kahles K16i and then started seeing info on the benefits of first focal plane vs 2nd and that started the confusion all over again. So advice and the why behind it would be greatly appreciated.
    God Bless,
    Rick
    For HD, I think SFP vs FFP isn't even a necessary discussion, though SFP tend to be better on 1x. FFP will really only matter (IMO) at higher magnification levels/longer distances. I wouldn't want anything over a 1-6 in SFP. If budget isn't a concern and you want ultimate do-all capability, try to find a Razor 1-10 or ATACR. Otherwise I vote Razor 1-6. Most people like the Khales a little better but that price point is pushing Razor 1-10 so I don't see the point.

  4. #14
    Here's a few videos that may help or muddy the waters if you haven't already seen them.






  5. #15
    LPVO discussion

    The light weight Khales K16i, Leupold VX6HD, and Steiner PX4i really appeal to me.
    David S.

  6. #16
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    Nov 2016
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    Eastern NC, 500 feet and below
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    For HD, I think SFP vs FFP isn't even a necessary discussion, though SFP tend to be better on 1x. FFP will really only matter (IMO) at higher magnification levels/longer distances. I wouldn't want anything over a 1-6 in SFP. If budget isn't a concern and you want ultimate do-all capability, try to find a Razor 1-10 or ATACR. Otherwise I vote Razor 1-6. Most people like the Khales a little better but that price point is pushing Razor 1-10 so I don't see the point.
    Pretty much all this; couldn’t have said it better.

    As to “why” behind everything- both the Razor in FFP and SFP will give you a true 1 power At the bottom. The difference between the two will come as you move towards the top end of the magnification. As you move up in magnification, on SFP, the reticle stays the same. Doesn’t move. So the value of the subtending on the reticle will change as you change magnification. Most are calibrated at the highest magnification. I e, 1-6x, on 6x the hashes will indicate a set value. Say 1 mil. Change magnification to say, 3, and the value subtended will change by the same ratio. 6/3=2 so now that same hashmark subtends 2 mils. Since math gets hard, SFP are usually ran on min or max power. First Focal scopes have a reticle that moves as you dial in magnification. The reticle sub tensions will still represent the same value regardless of the magnification set. 1 mil marks at 6x will still be 1 mil at 3x. Or 4x or 2.5x. (I personally don’t understand why some give a magnification limit as a trigger to go from Second to First; I’m still learning stuff. Maybe because the dot or center marks on FFP at higher than 4-6x will cover so much of the target at lower magnifications that it’s detrimental?)

    There is no BEST. Only the appropriate choice for your application. So, I ask how you plan on using the scope? If you want to shoot farther out and hold for wind/distance effects using the reticle markings and retain the ability to dial down for close shots and maximize field of view- sounds like First plane is what you want. Mostly shooting closer shots utilizing the scope as a red dot But want the ability to zoom in for greater visual acuity and take some distance shots every now and again? Second will work for you.

    Right now the Vortex Razors are being recommended to you because the GenIII 1-10 is really the only one in it’s class right now, giving you a single scope that does everything you would need BOTH the traditional 1-6 SFP AND FFP 2.5-10s to do. The GenII 1-6 is being discounted for so low right now that nothing comes close to it’s performance at the price point they can be had for.

    Just my understanding...
    Last edited by TOTS; 07-26-2020 at 02:14 PM.

  7. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    FL
    I own Mk6 1-6. No experience with others. I am fairly happy with it and used in a number of classes, although using it around barricades on my support shoulder was a bit of chore compared to a red dot. Plus the illumination is head position dependent.
    My primary reason for buying it: I got a good deal and at the time MK6 was one of the few options. Plus they had (still have?) military contracts. Despite these issues, I have no plans on selling it/getting something else.
    My advice: Find a good deal on a used optic, buy it, use it. If you don't like it, sell it and buy something else.

  8. #18
    Member Outlier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Let me preface this with I consider myself to be a beginner-level shooter and I'm new to the whole LVPO thing. I found the eyebox on the Leupold MK6 1-6 to be too small to be useable for me. The illumination flicker was distracting as well. Luckily I picked it up used so I didn't lose my shirt when I sold it. Learning that I was eyebox sensitive I narrowed my choices down to the Vortex or the Kahles. I would have went with the Vortex if I could have found a used one for a good price but could not so I went with the Kahles. I liked the weight and reticle options of the Kahles more than the Vortex. I'm happy with the illumination on the Kahles but I don't think the adjustment is as good as what the Vortex and Leupold have. It doesn't have an off-position between each brightness setting. I hope to make it out to the range with my buddy in the next few weeks who has the Vortex Razor 1-6 so we can have a hands on comparison between the two. HTH.

  9. #19
    The Kahles is the best 1-6 SFP Scope on the market. The Vortex Razor gets pretty close for a lot less money. I don’t like any of the Kahles reticles so I ordered a Razor today actually. Not sure I got the right reticle with that but we’ll see. JM1 reticle with a Scalarworks 1.57 Mount.

    Comparing FFP scopes to SFP scopes doesn’t make a ton of sense usually. Totally different things with different purposes. The NX8 seems to have a lot of problems but if size and weight are your primary factors for a FFP scope then it might work. ATACR is a beast but considered by many to Be the best do it all optic before the razor III came out.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TOTS View Post
    Pretty much all this; couldn’t have said it better.

    As to “why” behind everything- both the Razor in FFP and SFP will give you a true 1 power At the bottom. The difference between the two will come as you move towards the top end of the magnification. As you move up in magnification, on SFP, the reticle stays the same. Doesn’t move. So the value of the subtending on the reticle will change as you change magnification. Most are calibrated at the highest magnification. I e, 1-6x, on 6x the hashes will indicate a set value. Say 1 mil. Change magnification to say, 3, and the value subtended will change by the same ratio. 6/3=2 so now that same hashmark subtends 2 mils. Since math gets hard, SFP are usually ran on min or max power. First Focal scopes have a reticle that moves as you dial in magnification. The reticle sub tensions will still represent the same value regardless of the magnification set. 1 mil marks at 6x will still be 1 mil at 3x. Or 4x or 2.5x. (I personally don’t understand why some give a magnification limit as a trigger to go from Second to First; I’m still learning stuff. Maybe because the dot or center marks on FFP at higher than 4-6x will cover so much of the target at lower magnifications that it’s detrimental?)

    There is no BEST. Only the appropriate choice for your application. So, I ask how you plan on using the scope? If you want to shoot farther out and hold for wind/distance effects using the reticle markings and retain the ability to dial down for close shots and maximize field of view- sounds like First plane is what you want. Mostly shooting closer shots utilizing the scope as a red dot But want the ability to zoom in for greater visual acuity and take some distance shots every now and again? Second will work for you.

    Right now the Vortex Razors are being recommended to you because the GenIII 1-10 is really the only one in it’s class right now, giving you a single scope that does everything you would need BOTH the traditional 1-6 SFP AND FFP 2.5-10s to do. The GenII 1-6 is being discounted for so low right now that nothing comes close to it’s performance at the price point they can be had for.

    Just my understanding...
    The Gen IIs aren’t being discounted. The Gen ii and Gen iii are different scopes for different purposes. The Gen iii does seem to be very versatile though.

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