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Thread: Swampfox Optics

  1. #51
    Four recoil bosses, two in front and two in back.

  2. #52
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    @SwampfoxMike, can you comment about the base height of the Sentinel? Is it low enough to use stock height Glock sights on milled 43, 43x and 48s along with the new slimline MOS guns?
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyDuty View Post
    @SwampfoxMike, can you comment about the base height of the Sentinel? Is it low enough to use stock height Glock sights on milled 43, 43x and 48s along with the new slimline MOS guns?
    Base height is just under 7.5mm without the waterproofing plate which adds another half a millimetre or so when compressed under the optic, so think of it as just shy of 8mm tall back there. It will not be low enough to use stock height Glock sights. Here's a pic of one installed on a G48 with the slide milled directly for the footprint.



    I'm a bit confused on the new MOS guns-- apparently they do not ship with any adapter plates, yet I cannot tell if the slide itself is just milled for the RMS/SMS Shield footprint as a direct mount (please Glock, please) or if they have gotten weird and it's a proprietary footprint and they are expecting people to order plates separately to mount up Shield vs. RMRcc or whatever. Hopefully someone we know gets one in their hands soon and answers that question for me. But, obviously with an additional MOS-type adapter plate on there the situation regarding co-witnessing would be worse, not better.

    We took a look at the compromises made by Shield to create an optic that would co-witness with the factory irons, and decided that path was not for us. Frankly, we cannot make the rear any lower and still have a reasonable amount of elevation adjustment. We cannot make the rear any lower and still have a mechanism inside that holds zero through thousands of rounds fired. Whether RMSc / SMSc have succeeded in those areas despite making their rear area much lower is not for me to make claims about. You'll have to look around and see what people say about how well those optics hold zero over time, and how easy they are to sight in, and decide for yourself what you are willing to sacrifice in order to use standard height sights instead of taller sights.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampfoxMike View Post
    Base height is just under 7.5mm without the waterproofing plate which adds another half a millimetre or so when compressed under the optic, so think of it as just shy of 8mm tall back there. It will not be low enough to use stock height Glock sights. Here's a pic of one installed on a G48 with the slide milled directly for the footprint.



    I'm a bit confused on the new MOS guns-- apparently they do not ship with any adapter plates, yet I cannot tell if the slide itself is just milled for the RMS/SMS Shield footprint as a direct mount (please Glock, please) or if they have gotten weird and it's a proprietary footprint and they are expecting people to order plates separately to mount up Shield vs. RMRcc or whatever. Hopefully someone we know gets one in their hands soon and answers that question for me. But, obviously with an additional MOS-type adapter plate on there the situation regarding co-witnessing would be worse, not better.

    We took a look at the compromises made by Shield to create an optic that would co-witness with the factory irons, and decided that path was not for us. Frankly, we cannot make the rear any lower and still have a reasonable amount of elevation adjustment. We cannot make the rear any lower and still have a mechanism inside that holds zero through thousands of rounds fired. Whether RMSc / SMSc have succeeded in those areas despite making their rear area much lower is not for me to make claims about. You'll have to look around and see what people say about how well those optics hold zero over time, and how easy they are to sight in, and decide for yourself what you are willing to sacrifice in order to use standard height sights instead of taller sights.
    Thanks, Mike - I’m guessing I can get by with something lower than standard suppressor sights. My understanding of the new 43X/48 MOS is that they are direct milled for the RMSc footprint. How deep is anybody’s guess right now.
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...

  5. #55
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    After seeing how @CarlK‘s new 43X MOS worked out with a Sentinel and factory height XS Minimalist sights (or near enough to factory height,) I found an automatic Sentinel in stock at @Rockey‘s webstore and committed to that path. @SwampfoxMike, I’m looking forward to giving your stuff a try. The sight already shipped, but I’m probably still a ways off from picking up the new gun.

    This is CarlK’s pistol: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1112369
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...

  6. #56
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    Liberty and Justice adjustment

    @SwampfoxMike,
    I apologize if this has been answered somewhere, but I didn't find it on the site and didn't want to read the now 60+ page thread on Arcfcom. What are the click adjustments on the Liberty and Justice red dots? Also, are they click adjustments or are they more just lining the tick marks?
    I'm experiencing a Holosun warranty exchange process right now that is very low on communication on their part and very high on the expectation of faith on my part. My faith is tied up in my belief in God, so I'd prefer communication on warranty status of my life saving equipment. I'm getting the vibe from this thread and your website that Swampfox would stand behind their product and have my back a little better, so I'm about ready to try running the Liberty.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by stomridertx View Post
    @SwampfoxMike,
    I apologize if this has been answered somewhere, but I didn't find it on the site and didn't want to read the now 60+ page thread on Arcfcom. What are the click adjustments on the Liberty and Justice red dots? Also, are they click adjustments or are they more just lining the tick marks?
    I'm experiencing a Holosun warranty exchange process right now that is very low on communication on their part and very high on the expectation of faith on my part. My faith is tied up in my belief in God, so I'd prefer communication on warranty status of my life saving equipment. I'm getting the vibe from this thread and your website that Swampfox would stand behind their product and have my back a little better, so I'm about ready to try running the Liberty.
    I made the final decision not to put clicks in Liberty, Justice, or Sentinel, and I'll be honest about it. Our clicks sucked. They were mushy, you could barely feel them and you couldn't hear them at all. Worse, the click mechanism had the potential to make durability / reliability WORSE not better, which is counter intuitive, but true. The mechanism that did not depend on clicks to hold zero performed better. For me the choice was easy and nobody else really disagreed.

    You can tell that putting clicks in optics this size is a challenge. Trijicon did put clicks in their $699 RMRcc, so if you're willing to throw enough money at R&D apparently it can be done. Even then it's 3 MOA per click which is one of the most coarse adjustments ever installed in a factory red dot presented to the public at any price. I'm not criticizing them-- I'm certainly not capable of shooting a 3 inch group with a pistol at 100 yards so I reckon 3 MOA per click is probably good enough to get dialed in, right? I only bring it up to show that even the biggest companies, with 100 times our resources at their disposal, are still challenged by trying to install that feature in an optic that's the size of your thumb.

  8. #58
    Member stomridertx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampfoxMike View Post
    I made the final decision not to put clicks in Liberty, Justice, or Sentinel, and I'll be honest about it. Our clicks sucked. They were mushy, you could barely feel them and you couldn't hear them at all. Worse, the click mechanism had the potential to make durability / reliability WORSE not better, which is counter intuitive, but true. The mechanism that did not depend on clicks to hold zero performed better. For me the choice was easy and nobody else really disagreed.

    You can tell that putting clicks in optics this size is a challenge. Trijicon did put clicks in their $699 RMRcc, so if you're willing to throw enough money at R&D apparently it can be done. Even then it's 3 MOA per click which is one of the most coarse adjustments ever installed in a factory red dot presented to the public at any price. I'm not criticizing them-- I'm certainly not capable of shooting a 3 inch group with a pistol at 100 yards so I reckon 3 MOA per click is probably good enough to get dialed in, right? I only bring it up to show that even the biggest companies, with 100 times our resources at their disposal, are still challenged by trying to install that feature in an optic that's the size of your thumb.
    Understood, the lack of clicks is not an instant "no" from me, I just want to understand the key points of the optic before I make a purchase decision. What does each mark on the dial represent? 1MOA?
    Also, on your 50,000 round warranty, would that cover an accidental drop that cracked the glass? Would you mind giving a quick rundown on what your warranty process is like and typical turn around?

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by stomridertx View Post
    Understood, the lack of clicks is not an instant "no" from me, I just want to understand the key points of the optic before I make a purchase decision. What does each mark on the dial represent? 1MOA?
    Also, on your 50,000 round warranty, would that cover an accidental drop that cracked the glass? Would you mind giving a quick rundown on what your warranty process is like and typical turn around?
    Gonna keep it real with you again. The individual tick marks are 1 MOA, but they are tiny. They are significantly smaller than the actual slot in the adjustment screw where your screwdriver goes. It's going to be incredibly difficult to turn that screw just 1 or 2 MOA. Longer tick marks that are easier to see are placed at 5 MOA intervals. Lets math!

    Most of us are zeroing at 10 yards with a confirmation at 25 yards. Lets say you are a very accurate pistol shooter and you want to actually zero at 25. In that case, 1 MOA is 1.024" divided by 4 so .256 of one inch-- a quarter inch per small tick. That's probably too small to really be useful. If we ignore the small ticks and go with the large 5 MOA ticks, that adjusts us about 1.25" per large tick at 25 yards. That seems much more reasonable real world. For sight in then, I would math it out similarly depending on what distance you are sighting in at and think of those 5 MOA ticks as your basic unit of measure, then when you get really close, think of it in terms of a "smidge"... adjust slowly and find a happy medium between two of the 5 MOA ticks where you are dead on. I think using the smallest ticks is probably an exercise in frustration in the real world.

    Regarding the warranty, yes it covers accidental drops and we've done that in the past. The 50,000 round guarantee is, to be honest, a bit of marketing fluff-- we don't actually ask anyone if they've fired 50k rounds through their gun. Honestly the first guy to call us and say "hey, your product broke at 62,325 rounds fired, can you help?" is probably going to get a free hat and be featured on our Instagram or something. LOL. But "lifetime warranty" doesn't really register in people's minds anymore, it goes in one ear and out the other. We wanted to basically dare the customer and say hey, go out and shoot, go freakin' train with this thing and build your skill set and prove to yourself whether this new brand sucks or not. If you buy a budget LPVO or a red dot and it sits in the closet for 6 months you haven't actually learned anything about whether we built you a good product. So, that's why our guarantee is worded to sort of dare the customer to get out of the house and go shoot.

    The only thing the warranty doesn't cover is intentional abuse. If you went full Aaron Cowan and dropped it five times in a row onto bricks just to see what would happen, we're going to have a different conversation with you. But we aren't running an insurance company--we don't constantly look for ways to crawfish out of the deal and screw over guys who have already had a bad experience with our product. That's no way to build the reputation of a new brand name.

    If something goes wrong, you email support@swampfoxoptics.com, we have multiple guys with access to that customer service email, it'll be answered usually within the day. Send us back the broken product and any packaging you still have, and you'll have to foot the bill for that shipping most of the time. Guys gripe about that but we did it so the customer will have at least some skin in the game-- it helps us weed out the scammers if you have to pay the $10 or whatever to send it back to us. Once we get the product back from you, we'll ship out a replacement. The policy says we can opt to repair or replace but we don't really have a repair department built yet (again, keepin' it real here) so it'll be a new in box optic headed back you, this time with the shipping on us. Normally total turnaround time including shipping time is a week to a week and a half. Recently we have been sold out and backordered and that has stretched things out in terms of turnaround time for a couple of guys. Fortunately they weren't jerks about it, and we've learned to hold back a handful of boxes from future shipments for potential returns.

    Maybe some of what I wrote above isn't exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope you'll appreciate honesty from the start. I wrote it knowing that a lot more people than you might read it-- might as well tell it like it is from the beginning and hope they respect that.

  10. #60
    Member stomridertx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampfoxMike View Post
    Gonna keep it real with you again. The individual tick marks are 1 MOA, but they are tiny. They are significantly smaller than the actual slot in the adjustment screw where your screwdriver goes. It's going to be incredibly difficult to turn that screw just 1 or 2 MOA. Longer tick marks that are easier to see are placed at 5 MOA intervals. Lets math!

    Most of us are zeroing at 10 yards with a confirmation at 25 yards. Lets say you are a very accurate pistol shooter and you want to actually zero at 25. In that case, 1 MOA is 1.024" divided by 4 so .256 of one inch-- a quarter inch per small tick. That's probably too small to really be useful. If we ignore the small ticks and go with the large 5 MOA ticks, that adjusts us about 1.25" per large tick at 25 yards. That seems much more reasonable real world. For sight in then, I would math it out similarly depending on what distance you are sighting in at and think of those 5 MOA ticks as your basic unit of measure, then when you get really close, think of it in terms of a "smidge"... adjust slowly and find a happy medium between two of the 5 MOA ticks where you are dead on. I think using the smallest ticks is probably an exercise in frustration in the real world.

    Regarding the warranty, yes it covers accidental drops and we've done that in the past. The 50,000 round guarantee is, to be honest, a bit of marketing fluff-- we don't actually ask anyone if they've fired 50k rounds through their gun. Honestly the first guy to call us and say "hey, your product broke at 62,325 rounds fired, can you help?" is probably going to get a free hat and be featured on our Instagram or something. LOL. But "lifetime warranty" doesn't really register in people's minds anymore, it goes in one ear and out the other. We wanted to basically dare the customer and say hey, go out and shoot, go freakin' train with this thing and build your skill set and prove to yourself whether this new brand sucks or not. If you buy a budget LPVO or a red dot and it sits in the closet for 6 months you haven't actually learned anything about whether we built you a good product. So, that's why our guarantee is worded to sort of dare the customer to get out of the house and go shoot.

    The only thing the warranty doesn't cover is intentional abuse. If you went full Aaron Cowan and dropped it five times in a row onto bricks just to see what would happen, we're going to have a different conversation with you. But we aren't running an insurance company--we don't constantly look for ways to crawfish out of the deal and screw over guys who have already had a bad experience with our product. That's no way to build the reputation of a new brand name.

    If something goes wrong, you email support@swampfoxoptics.com, we have multiple guys with access to that customer service email, it'll be answered usually within the day. Send us back the broken product and any packaging you still have, and you'll have to foot the bill for that shipping most of the time. Guys gripe about that but we did it so the customer will have at least some skin in the game-- it helps us weed out the scammers if you have to pay the $10 or whatever to send it back to us. Once we get the product back from you, we'll ship out a replacement. The policy says we can opt to repair or replace but we don't really have a repair department built yet (again, keepin' it real here) so it'll be a new in box optic headed back you, this time with the shipping on us. Normally total turnaround time including shipping time is a week to a week and a half. Recently we have been sold out and backordered and that has stretched things out in terms of turnaround time for a couple of guys. Fortunately they weren't jerks about it, and we've learned to hold back a handful of boxes from future shipments for potential returns.

    Maybe some of what I wrote above isn't exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope you'll appreciate honesty from the start. I wrote it knowing that a lot more people than you might read it-- might as well tell it like it is from the beginning and hope they respect that.
    Thanks, it's very helpful in the decision making process. The adjustments are reasonable for a pistol optic and don't discourage me at all. I make 0.5mm pencil lines on rear iron sights to drift them enough to move bullet impact 1 or 2 inches left or right at 25 yards, so courser adjustments can actually be a good thing at closer distance. It was mainly an RFI so if I order one I know exactly what I'm getting and expectations are in check.
    Thanks also for the warranty info, that sounds reasonable as well. I mainly just want to feel like a company will be easy to deal with and communicate, and have my back on my equipment I run every day. I don't spike optics on concrete and used to think Aaron Cowan's test was extreme, until Murphy attacked me at the range and caused the same thing to happen to my optic on accident. I was sighting in a Holosun 407C on MOS Glock 19 at the range from a bench at 25 yards. I had it on a sandbag rest pretty solidly (I thought), went to look through my spotting scope, and heard the gun hit the concrete floor. The optic hit the ground first full on Sage Dynamics style, and the glass de-laminated and cracked at the top. The experience told me I need 2 optics for any carry gun so that I'm not going without like I am now during the warranty process. From this info, that second optic may be a Liberty and it may go into primary duty with the Holosun 407c I hope like hell I eventually get back going to backup duty.

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