Here is an incident where the gun (Glock) is fired while holstered. ALS light bearing holster. At least it appears to still be holstered, unless he partially removed it and you just can't really see it on the video.
While I simply do not trust Sig, and I am not sure that the holster is at fault in the CT case, this video shows the significant downsides of holsters that accept lights.
You can't make that determination simply from that video.Originally Posted by TheNewbie
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
You’re not wrong. It’s not completely obvious what happened, but the light bearing holsters make it a real possibility.
I said it was an ALS. It could just be an SLS, which would be much easier to defeat retention wise.
It would be interesting to know the stats on how many discharges of the 320 were in light bearing duty holsters vs form fitting Kydex.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Every one I have heard about has been a Safariland with a WML or Blackhawk Serpa. I have yet to hear about one that involved form fitting kydex or leather that has a fully enclosed trigger guard.
Not saying that there hasn't been one, but I haven't heard about it.
Thinking back to the initial 320 issues, my recollection is an officer dropped a holstered 320, and it went off when the holstered 320 hit on the back of the slide. A well known Sig after market parts guy said it wasn't possible for the gun to discharge, but before long, there were a bunch of YT videos showing the striker releasing when hit in a certain way. That led to the "voluntary" recall.
Fast forward to now, and some 320 pistols are discharging, and most seem to be in light bearing holsters. There have been a number of theories as to how the pistols might go off for reasons other than something getting into the trigger guard, but so far they seem like just theories. With the money at stake from lawsuits, I imagine a fair amount of effort has gone into trying to make the 320 discharge without pulling the trigger.
When I look at the various Safariland ALS holsters my wife and I have, I can see how something could work its way into the trigger guard and touch the trigger. However, that something would also have to depress the tab on the face of the trigger to make it fire, which probably has prevented a number of pistols from discharging.
The difference between whether the pistol fires spontaneously or is susceptible to being pressed in certain holsters obviously means a lot to Sig from a liability perspective, but may not matter much on whether the 320 without a thumb safety is appropriate for certain use.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
I have seen a ND with a Glock in a Safariland WML holster on the range. The officer was wearing a North Face Denali fleece and one of the little drawstring drums worked itself into the trigger guard as he was re-holstering and "PoP!" Luckily it just blew a hole in the bottom of the holster and shot into the dirt, but scared the crap out of him and the guy next to him. The drum was bit enough and at just the right angle and tension (and he applied enough re-holstering force) that it overcame the trigger safety. I'm sure there are lots of things that slipped into a Safariland WML holster that was blocked on a Glock or M&P by the trigger safety tab, but we will never know because the gun never went bang.
The P320 has no safety tab which makes it susceptible to minor pressure on the side of the trigger causing it to actuate unlike most striker fired guns.
This was a P320 in a Serpa carried loose in a purse (with other stuff):
https://abc7chicago.com/sig-sauer-la...arge/10974219/
I'd bet a box of 44 Special that the Serpa mechanism actuated, the gun came slightly unholstered, and something else worked its way into the trigger guard, and as the purse moved it actuated the trigger causing it to discharge. Would this have happened on Glock? Way less likely because of the trigger safety tab.
Ashley Catatao of Sommersville PD (Mass) was carrying a bunch duty gear with it flapping against her side (it's on video) when it smacked into her holster and "PoP!"
Most Safariland duty holsters angle the muzzle either slightly back or back quite a bit. If you are wearing a duty belt and not touching the gun at all and drew an imaginary line from the muzzle it typically wouldn't intersect a human body part (if you don't have your hand (or elbow for the short folks) on the gun then typically an "uncommanded" discharge would put a round into the floor or the seat of the car, not into a leg). Most of us know if we rest our hand on our gun (which lots of us do) that downward pressure cants the holster in towards our leg or feet.
Since quite a few of the lawsuits against SIG are claiming the gun shot them into the leg or ankle, it makes sense that there was downward pressure applied on the gun in the holster at the time it discharged, which would cant it towards the body, when the gun went off. That same pressure could hypothetically also cause the trigger to actuate if it was caught against a foreign object or part of the holster.
So if there is pressure (a swinging heavy duty bag or pressure from a hand/arm) is it really un-commanded? None of these guns were sitting stationary on a shelf in an empty room when they fired.
Mere impact such as smacking a mallet or object against a post-recall gun typically can't make the striker release. Therefore it only makes sense something is likely causing the trigger to actuate and the gun to function and discharge.
I said it earlier in this thread, but it appears to be a poor interface with the holster and/or human error. I don't want to let SIG off the hook (or the holster companies), but I think it is what it is.
The P320 in X5 Legion guise is extremely common in recreational action pistol shooting. I don't think we're hearing lots of complaints from those circles about the guns "just going off." The complaints are primarily from LE folks using plastic bucket Safariland duty holsters (or a Serpa in a purse).
A super easy trigger to pull is truly a super easy trigger to pull. When there are not mechanical safeties (like on a 1911/2011) to keep that super easy trigger to pull from being pulled...well...I think we are seeing what that gets.
Last edited by KevH; 08-04-2023 at 05:36 PM.
I just posted this in the LE section, but I'll do it here as well:
I've talked at length in other posts about how I believe a lot of the ND issues with the P320 are due to a combination of the lack of trigger safety (the tab like on a Glock or pretty much every other striker-fired polymer pistol) and the poor interface with Safariland and other modern duty holsters.
I apologize for the garage photos, but my kids are asleep and I didn't want to make a bunch of noise.
The holster is the latest version of the Safariland 7360RDS with the band around it. The gun is a completely stock SIG M18. The round pictured is 45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ which I'm using to represent a finger or other foreign object.
The gun is completely seated in the holster with both the SLS and ALS mechanism engaged and the holster has been properly adjusted for the correct tension.
Use your imagination to picture how a ND could happen and keep in mind most LE P320's are not a M18 with a manual safety.
Also keep in mind if there is a foreign object or if it was a human finger likely the object would be gone after the ND and thus the gun would pass all safety/function checks as would the holster.
I'll let the pictures talk:
...and if you think the new Mexican-made 6360RDS series holsters are any better with this I assure you they are not.
Sariland's answer to this is the SafariVault which just came out and is only sort-of available at the moment.
Seems like some bright trial lawyer should make Safariland a co-defendant in some of these lawsuits?
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