New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[Joe in PNG]

It's the old semi-auto pistol dilemma- how do you design a self-loader that's easy to shoot, but one that doesn't make unexpected loud noises?

[Bucky]

What is unique to the striker SIGs is their trigger bar moves in the opposite direction of most other striker guns when the trigger is pulled - meaning a tabbed trigger doesn’t provide any inertia / drop safety protection.

When I watch the P320 drop fires in slow motion, the trigger does move during that process. Are you saying that that gun would still have fired, even if that trigger was immobilized in some way and didn’t move?

[claymore504]

Earlier I mentioned the current 320 problems may be QC /tolerance stacking rather than a design issue because we are not seeing the issues. reported by others.

A shooting acquaintance has been working in repair / warranty at large SIG distributor which sells to both the public and LE Agencies / LEO.

They have customers using newer LE program (DHS spec) 320s / actual M17/18s and customers using regular/ commercial guns.

Anecdote is not a substitute for data but he reports the most common gun they work on are 320s but almost all the issues are with commercial guns. He has not seen any issues with actual M17/18s or with the DHS spec guns. Common issues with commercial guns included barrel/ accuracy issues and barrels rusting / exhibiting finish problem.

Notably fewer issues with p365s.

This is concerning to me that there is such a difference in LE/MIL guns and commercial. I am at a large MIL/LE training facility here in Texas once a month and we see many units come through with the issued M17 and also see LE with the P320 and we have not seen any NDs. That is just what I have seen only. I always try to speak with the LEO guys who are carrying the P320 and all have expressed they really like it. For myself, I lost trust in the P320 a while ago now and I don't see that coming back. The fact that there seems to be such a big QC difference in the MIL/LE and commercial guns is a big NOGO for me. As for the P365, I switched to it from the Shield a couple years back, but would switch back to the Shield without a doubt if there is a reason for me to lose trust in the P365.

[Cool Breeze]

There is nothing unique about fully cocked striker fired pistols.

The S&W M&P, HK VP9, Walther PPQ, Q4/5, PDP, Beretta APX, Springfield XD series, Caniks, etc all are functionally cocked and unlocked guns without manual or grip safeties.

There has been much mention of “trigger safeties” in this thread - specifically tabbed /blade style as some type of manual safety. They’re not. The hinge style triggers like the original M&P trigger make this clear. They are inertia drop safeties, just as when applied to guns like the modern savage and Ruger bolt guns.

What is unique to the striker SIGs is their trigger bar moves in the opposite direction of most other striker guns when the trigger is pulled - meaning a tabbed trigger doesn’t provide any inertia / drop safety protection.

Is the M&P's fully cocked? For some reason I thought it was partially cocked liked the Glock and could not detonate a primer if the firing pin block safety failed. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong though.

Do you know off hand any other mainstream guns that are only partially cocked? There was an really good thread awhile ago about the safety of fully cocked strikers - will need to re-read.

[WobblyPossum]

Is the M&P's fully cocked? For some reason I thought it was partially cocked liked the Glock and could not detonate a primer if the firing pin block safety failed. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong though.

Do you know off hand any other mainstream guns that are only partially cocked? There was an really good thread awhile ago about the safety of fully cocked strikers - will need to re-read.

The M&P is fully cocked. The only other partially cocked striker I can think of is the CZ P10.

Regarding detonating a primer if the striker safety fails, I remember Tom Jones posting that the Glock’s striker would set off most primers from its partially cocked position if the safeties failed too. Sadly his posts are gone so I can’t find the discussion.

[Cool Breeze]

The M&P is fully cocked. The only other partially cocked striker I can think of is the CZ P10.

Regarding detonating a primer if the striker safety fails, I remember Tom Jones posting that the Glock’s striker would set off most primers from its partially cocked position if the safeties failed too. Sadly his posts are gone so I can’t find the discussion.

Thanks for the clarification. My memory failed me on both points it seemed. Partially/fully cocked seems a moot point then.

[Noah]

Thanks for the clarification. My memory failed me on both points it seemed. Partially/fully cocked seems a moot point then.

Yes and no- the Glock design allows the extremely robust drop shelf in the trigger housing vs a 320 spring being supported by spring pressure only. It also allows the SCD to exist, although not part of the original design.

[GJM]

The Echelon addresses this issue:

"Echelon’s Central Operating Group features a unique second sear design to help prevent unintentional discharge should the firearm be dropped."

[Noah]

The Echelon addresses this issue:

"Echelon’s Central Operating Group features a unique second sear design to help prevent unintentional discharge should the firearm be dropped."

Doesn't the 320 have a second sear catch as well?

[Texaspoff]

Doesn't the 320 have a second sear catch as well?

It has a second notch on it's sear. The Echelon actually has two sears one primary and one secondary, the safety sear.



TXPO