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Thread: New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

  1. #1
    Site Supporter JonInWA's Avatar
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    New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

    On July 2nd, a suit against SIG regarding the P320 was filed in Federal District Court, in New Hampshire:

    https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.town...63c886.pdf.pdf

    The suit is very interesting; the plaintiff alleges he had a P320 that essentially went off by itself, with no trigger manipulation. The plaintff's P320 is one that had not undergone SIG's "Voluntary Upgrade Program (VUP)."

    What's interesting about the lawsuit (and it goes without saying, it's a lawsuit, with one party alleging) is that it cites specific instances of other P320s that HAD undergone the SIG VUP upgrade similarly self-firing; this is a huge concern.

    This suit was brought to my attention of p-f member lwt16, who is an active sworn career LEO and also a leader in a large church security team, which is armed with P320s. Both he an I have been delving deep into this as best we can for the past week or so, due to our personal and organizational concerns.

    I've read through the complete suit several times, and it provides a seemingly accurate picture of the P320 and SIG. As many of you know, I personally own a 2019 production in 9mm (more about the significance of P320 production dates shortly), originally a Compact RX, currrently (and probably permanently) equipped with a X Carry grip module and a SIG steel shroud for the OEM Romeo1 RDS. To date mine has 1068 problem-free rounds through it, all of it factory cartridges, primarily Sellier & Bellot 124 gr.

    Lwt16 has 2, both personally owned, a 2017 and a 2020 production. He'll talk about them in greater detail shortly.

    After some research, we've determined what we feel are the essentially 4 production year categories of the P320:

    1. Military M17/M18s;

    2. Original P320s without the VUP modifications;

    3. Pre-4/2018 production P320s that have undergone the VUP modifications by SIG;

    4. 4/18 and subsequent production P320s.

    Essentially, we believe that P320s in Categorys 1 and 4 are intrinsically good to go, without evidence of self-discharging issues. Categories 2 and 3 are problematic, and of significant safety concern to both users, organizations and bystanders. We strongly suspect (based on component inspections and comparisons of a 2017 and 2020 production P320 components), but have not had officially confirmed by SIG that SIG has induced running changes to the P320 subsequent to the initiation of the VUP in 2017, particularly regarding the sear and sear springs, and that those changes may have become incorporated into April 2018 and subsequent production.

    Additionally, Lwt16 is a factory certified SIG P320 Armorer, and has personally detail examined and inspected at least 40 P320s of varying production dates, and found QC issues with 13 of the 40 P320s. I'll let Larry address those in greater detail.

    We've had some detailed discussions on the forum regarding SIG's issues and integrity in dealing with them. My personal expereinces with SIG, both recently and back to the 1990s have been superb; I have nothing but praise for the individuals with which I've dealt with, and my personal P320 has been a flawless performer, and is used for duty, IDPA, EDC and home defense. But I'm very troubled by the Category 2 and 3 P320s-particularly with the possibilities that the VUP did not intrinsically resolve the previous safety issues with the P320, and they may not have been resolved until possibly 4/18 and subsequent production.

    Realizing that what we're predominantly looking at is a lawsuit, with aggrieved party allegations, yet to go throughly through the legal process, my thoughts are as follows:

    1. If you own and use what I've temed a Category 2 or 3 production P320, I would either cease carry/suspend use or carry only Condition 3 (magazine loaded, chamber empty) until the gun was sent to SIG for them to individually examine and certify the weapon-especially upgrading with the necessary current production upgraded/modified components;

    2. If you are LEO, I would suggest individually and or organizationally addressing these P320s with your Regional SIG LEO Representative; if a commercial user, I'd contact SIG Customer Service and request a RMA (and shipping label) for inspection and servicing.

    Personally, I'm invested in my P320; it's been an accurate and reliable pistol that has earned my trust, and is also being used to test current Check-Mate Industries' P320 magazines (which are also performing flawlessly-collectivelly mine and with multiple other p-f members participating; there are currently about 65 of these magazines being tested).

    We've all got a lot to deal with these days, COVID-19 and life in general. We don't need the spectre of a duty/EDC gun having a self-ignition added to that burden. I am hoping that SIG responsibly steps up and thoroughly ventilates and addresses these allegations with urgency and immediacy-legally and publically.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 07-17-2020 at 11:48 AM.

  2. #2
    To say this has brought strife to my existence is putting it mildly.

    Heavily invested in the platform.

  3. #3
    Self-Immolating RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Subscribed to this thread with extreme interest.

    I would like to request that we self-moderate and allow @JonInWA and @lwt16 make their various posts addressing their observations and communications, before we begin a conversation in earnest.
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  4. #4
    Edit: withdrawing post in agreement with Rob’s request and will re-post down the line.
    “It’s time for us to unite so we can heal” - spoken by the people who have been viciously attacking others of differing political alignment for four years. I think they misspelled “heel”.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter 98z28's Avatar
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    Huh. Can't say I'm surprised. The hasty nature of the upgrade implementation has always smelled funny. What are the odds that Sig fixed the issue without introducing additional problems just by adding some extra parts and doing sone milling? I've been optimistic the the 320 will get sorted out through the fielding of military guns, but I've been skeptical of the existing commercial P320.

    I am very curious about the specific differences y'all have identified between guns in group 3 and 4, as I have a few of them (pre-2018 guns that have been "upgraded" by Sig). My examples have been awesome, I am deeply invested in the P320 system, and I'd like to stay with it, if possible. Are the differences in just the upper or lower (i.e. can you solve it by getting a post 4/18 "conversion kit" and putting it on an upgraded FCU)? Are there specific issues we can look for? Is there anything you are using as a "go/no go" for your personal guns?

    Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Slight differences in the sear and possibly the dual sear springs. I'll post more (pics) later when I can.

    I can tear each down and compare and contrast any other parts if asked. I do know that there was one part no longer installed on the P320s......of recent manufacture....the safety lever spring. I've read that they no longer install this part in the FCUs of recent production. I've seen two examples and own a 2020 variant that did not contain this spring.

    My church team decided to pull them temporarily and get qualified on other pistols for the time being. There's been some gnashing of teeth. So far, the messenger hasn't been shot.....but may be in the sight picture. lol

    Regards.

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    Sorry for the pic quality. I spend my cash on ammo and B8 repair centers.
    Last edited by lwt16; 07-17-2020 at 12:56 PM. Reason: adding pics from a crappy camera

  7. #7
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 07-17-2020 at 01:23 PM.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  8. #8
    [QUOTE=JonInWA;1084792]On July 2nd, a suit against SIG regarding the P320 was filed in Federal District Court, in New Hampshire:


    1. If you own and use what I've temed a Category 2 or 3 production P320, I would either cease carry/suspend use or carry only Condition 3 (magazine loaded, chamber empty) until the gun was sent to SIG for them to individually examine and certify the weapon-especially upgrading with the necessary current production upgraded/modified components;


    Any suggestions on how to open this conversation with Sig? I've got a 2017 320 that's been "upgraded" and I previously went through a couple frustrating years trying to unfuck a P220 ST with the bum internal extractor. My experience with Sig reps at the time was denial that there was an issue--until Sig started offering to swap and fit new slides with external extractors (for a not insignificant price).

  9. #9
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    Really dumb question: How does one know that a particular FCU was made before or after the 4/18 date? Serial number lookup? Visual inspection of a certain part? If serial number, is there a known number which can serve a a cutoff?

    While I currently have no P320 pistols, I have friends who do, including more than one HSV LEO. As such, I want to be conversant with the issues and fixes.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter JonInWA's Avatar
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    Guys, both of us have tried to do our due diligence as best as possible before initiating this discussion thread. We're certainly not "out to get SIG" or trying grandstand on this. We're both personally/organizationally invested, and simultaneously troubled and concerned over the details covered in the lawsuit.

    We'd like to keep the discussion as professional as possible. We're hoping that some of those who individually and organizationally experienced on the platform can contribute based on their empirical experiences and observations.

    Best, Jon

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