New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[HCM]

I think when all of this is boiled down it comes to what was hit on the last page: The safety systems in the Sig don't seem to work as they are intended to in all specimens of the pistol.

I am repeatedly seeing people insist on how the system should work without seeming to realize that isn't binding on how things actually function in the real world.

You and I have both been around long enough to recall SIG having different QC /specs for certain contract p22x series guns vs commercial and generic agency purchase guns.

DHS contract 229s worked but the NJ State Police had to sue SIG over 229s of similar vintage that didn’t.

We have over 10k 320’s in service and fire millions of rounds through them without any OOB incidents I’m aware of. We’re likely the largest 320 users outside the DOD. But we also only use 320’s with our specific SKU.

So maybe more of an execution / tolerance problem than a design problem.

I can tell you we’ve had enough problems with P365 series guns that we went from allowing any P365 series (commercial or LE/IOP sourced) to only allowing LE/IOP sourced guns even with mandatory armorer inspections prior to being put into service.

[KevH]

Kev,

Can you share what sorts of concerns made the Walther PDP a no go? Function aspect, or logistics and support advantage of going with S&W?

Our issue with Walther wasn't the gun itself (I actually really like the PDP), but rather the factory support and aftermarket support that goes along with them.

They sent us a test gun, but because CHPWS makes their optics mount they they never sent us a plate. Apparently CHPWS' quality control issues caused Walther to reject several batches. It's been nearly a year and a half since I first received the test gun and still no plate.

Also, during a three month period they cycled through at least two LE reps. I have no clue who our LE rep is right now. At one point during the testing process they basically just started ghosting us.

Extra mags and small parts availability was apparently an issue as well. After going through the armorers class we started putting a list together of parts we thought we might need for a spare parts kit for our armory. We were basically told to order things only as needed because of supply chain issues. Then availability of aftermarket accessories (holsters, blue guns, etc.) is another concern.

Lastly, the age old question of where to buy the guns (there is only one LE distributor) along with the questions, "Who else issues these?" arose.

I know this is long winded, but for a personally owned gun I really like the PDP. Do I trust Walther to provide adequate support for agency issue? Not at all.

The PDP costs at least $100 per gun more even at agency price than either the S&W or the Glock. Is it worth it? With the support issues I mentioned does it make any sense to pay more money for less factory support for a department purchase? I don't think so.

[Hot Sauce]

I know this is long winded

Not at all, appreciate the detail.

Sounds like a disconnect between the product design/manufacturing side of the house and the sales strategy and execution.

[RCS470977]

The S&W Performance Center (PC) safety plunger is very similar to the Apex one and if you have a gun with a gritty trigger pull cleans it up considerably.

IMHO (as well as the LE guys at S&W) all M&P should just come with one to begin with.

Their factory flat trigger with the PC plunger is a darn good factory trigger right out of the box.

Do all OR with the new flat triggers come with the PC safety plunger?

[RJ]

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-sa...tment-incident

“In reviewing the video footage of this incident currently available, it appears that the involved firearm was not fully seated in its holster and the holster retention hood was not fully closed over the pistol at the time of discharge (images below). This improperly holstered condition would have left the firearm’s trigger exposed and vulnerable to actuation. Even if properly holstered, the features of the involved holster allow for foreign object intrusion and interaction with the trigger, as has been seen in other incidents. ”

[jlw]

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-sa...tment-incident

“In reviewing the video footage of this incident currently available, it appears that the involved firearm was not fully seated in its holster and the holster retention hood was not fully closed over the pistol at the time of discharge (images below). This improperly holstered condition would have left the firearm’s trigger exposed and vulnerable to actuation. Even if properly holstered, the features of the involved holster allow for foreign object intrusion and interaction with the trigger, as has been seen in other incidents. ”

I rise to a point of order. The rotating piece is correctly called a "bail", at least that's what Bill Rogers called it in a demo.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

You and I have both been around long enough to recall SIG having different QC /specs for certain contract p22x series guns vs commercial and generic agency purchase guns.

DHS contract 229s worked but the NJ State Police had to sue SIG over 229s of similar vintage that didn’t.

We have over 10k 320’s in service and fire millions of rounds through them without any OOB incidents I’m aware of. We’re likely the largest 320 users outside the DOD. But we also only use 320’s with our specific SKU.

So maybe more of an execution / tolerance problem than a design problem.

I can tell you we’ve had enough problems with P365 series guns that we went from allowing any P365 series (commercial or LE/IOP sourced) to only allowing LE/IOP sourced guns even with mandatory armorer inspections prior to being put into service.

What sorts of issues have been noted with the P365 models in general? Would you say this is a model best avoided at this point? I have one that I planned to carry but was under the impression these were GTG until reading your post.

[maximus83]

What sorts of issues have been noted with the P365 models in general? Would you say this is a model best avoided at this point? I have one that I planned to carry but was under the impression these were GTG until reading your post.

Had the same Q, asked and HCM replied in the 365 thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1498150

[jlw]

How would the bail not being secured be any different than a straight up ALS holster such as a 6354 or 6390?

[TicTacticalTimmy]

In my mind the verdict on the P320 is actually worse if all these incidents are indeed NDs rather than ADs.

If they are ADs, the problem is mechanical, and can, at least in theory, be fixed through either redesigns or tighter QC.

If they are NDs, and the rate of those is much higher than on competing designs such as Glocks, then the cause is the trigger being too easily to pull, whether intentionally or unintentionally. That seems to suggest the trigger characteristics of the P320 are not suitable for the type of dynamic work seen by LEOs.
You could counter that argument by saying "they just need better training" but that is a moot point if they arent going to get that training, or if more training does not actually prevent 100% of LEOs from making 100% of the mistakes that lead to NDs. Based on what I know of the hiring pool LEO agencies have to work with these days, we should expect LEO gun handling to get generally worse over time, not better.