New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[HCM]

The S&W MP 2.0 OR direct milled for the ACRO is the answer. That gun had just 'materialized' when I was retiring last year, and we didn't have a sample. But just the 'rumor' of that gun kind of reset our thinking. Whole thing is moot, now. No new guns coming to that place. And if there are, it'll be personally owned weapons. The department/city just doesn't have this as a priority now, when the whole place is burning down around them.

But good on you guys for that decision.

Direct mill is catching on locally.

The San Antonio and Austin PDs (each about 2k sworn) are both issuing the factory ACRO cut M&Ps with good results. The main difference being Austin is issuing everyone a P2 while San Antonio is requiring the officers to purchase their own P2 or Steiner MPS.

One of our smaller local depts (50ish sworn) is running direct mill G45s with Holosun 507 green dots.

This past Saturday I audited a Green Ops Red Dot class which included an SAPD bike cop using his issued gear. He won the individually timed bill drill portion with a 2.18 clean so it’s no handicap. (Ricky Bobby here did 1.85 with a .85 1st shot but with 1 out (5th shot) :-( got to reign in that cougar …)

[idahojess]

S&W has a had a 70+ year relationship with the two departments mentioned and has repeatedly bent over backwards to help us. The M&P was a good design and the M&P 2.0 was an improvement and the M&P 2.0 OR (flat trigger with PC safety plunger) is even better. The gun is almost as easy to strip as the Glock and the factory generally supplies us with unlimited small parts for free. The grip seems to genuinely fit a more diverse range of officers and the factory promised to ship (and actually did deliver) our guns super quick. Again...easy button.

Good info -- what is the PC safety plunger? I'm guessing that is a S&W performance center item similar to an apex plunger like the one pictured below? Does that keep the trigger pull around 5 pounds still?

[KevH]

Good info -- what is the PC safety plunger? I'm guessing that is a S&W performance center item similar to an apex plunger like the one pictured below? Does that keep the trigger pull around 5 pounds still?

The S&W Performance Center (PC) safety plunger is very similar to the Apex one and if you have a gun with a gritty trigger pull cleans it up considerably.

IMHO (as well as the LE guys at S&W) all M&P should just come with one to begin with.

Their factory flat trigger with the PC plunger is a darn good factory trigger right out of the box.

[Hot Sauce]

We tested the P320, the FN 509, Walther PDP, and a few others. There are good reasons not to select the guns I just mentioned. Sometimes its the gun design itself and other times its the way it interacts with holsters and other concerns like factory support.

Kev,

Can you share what sorts of concerns made the Walther PDP a no go? Function aspect, or logistics and support advantage of going with S&W?

[HCM]

Kev,

Can you share what sorts of concerns made the Walther PDP a no go? Function aspect, or logistics and support advantage of going with S&W?

Not Kev but other agencies found an issue with PDPs getting a dead striker if knocked slightly out of battery via muzzle contact. It appears to be something Walter was aware of, and fixed quietly as a rolling change in late 2022.

My January 2023 production PDP does not have the issue nor does my buddies December 2022 production PDP.

I don’t know anyone who’s interacted with Walter on behalf of an agency, but I know several individuals whose experience with Walther customer service was that Walther seemed to have adopted the old school HK “you suck, and we hate you” customer service model.

It seems like catching parts in stock is hit or miss. Like HK they seem to bring everything in in batches from the old country.

Otherwise, they’re pretty nice shooting guns. If you want to nitpick the longer slide models are a bit over sprung and the stock mag well is kinda small but those are easy to fix.

[HCM]

Ok - so this is going to be a shit show but data is data.



I know Hunter, he’s a credible source and an Instructor for Modern Samaurai Project.

- gun is stock;
- about 6 months old so current production;
- ammo was Blazer Brass
- issue occurred while firing not firing admin handling.
- not a duty gun

No further info.

[Hot Sauce]

Not Kev but other agencies found an issue with PDPs getting a dead striker if knocked slightly out of battery via muzzle contact. It appears to be something Walter was aware of, and fixed quietly as a rolling change in late 2022.

My January 2023 production PDP does not have the issue nor does my buddies December 2022 production PDP.

This is essentially what I was aiming to figure out, if this one of the primary issues, since it’s been discussed on here a good bit.

Curious what the change actually is, and how individual owners might retrofit via IDing part numbers in lieu of Walther actually coming out and mentioning it. They are also not above recalls, I believe the PPS had one.

Appears that Walther had a civilian market in mind based on who they engaged with and sponsored when the PDP was first coming to market. Logistics concerns, parts availability, and being generally easy to deal with seem to be much more important to agency clients, provided a certain threshold of reliability and performance is met.

[TCinVA]

Ok - so this is going to be a shit show but data is data.



I know Hunter, he’s a credible source and an Instructor for Modern Samaurai Project.

- gun is stock;
- about 6 months old so current production;
- ammo was Blazer Brass
- issue occurred while firing not firing admin handling.
- not a duty gun

No further info.

I think when all of this is boiled down it comes to what was hit on the last page: The safety systems in the Sig don't seem to work as they are intended to in all specimens of the pistol.

I am repeatedly seeing people insist on how the system should work without seeming to realize that isn't binding on how things actually function in the real world.

[HCM]

This is essentially what I was aiming to figure out, if this one of the primary issues, since it’s been discussed on here a good bit.

Curious what the change actually is, and how individual owners might retrofit via IDing part numbers in lieu of Walther actually coming out and mentioning it. They are also not above recalls, I believe the PPS had one.

Appears that Walther had a civilian market in mind based on who they engaged with and sponsored when the PDP was first coming to market. Logistics concerns, parts availability, and being generally easy to deal with seem to be much more important to agency clients, provided a certain threshold of reliability and performance is met.

Walther was initially trying to market the PDP to LE but it hasn’t gotten much traction.

Logistics have been a problem from the get-go, wasn’t there such a dearth of full-size PDP magazines initially that people were running Canik mags ?

Both Joel Park and Kwansik Kim are running them in USPSA and I understand Kwansik has over 100k rounds on one of his practice guns.

There are no details on the root cause of, or fix for the dead striker / muzzle bump issue. Nor is there any indication whether or not it’s something that can be corrected retroactively.

[jlw]

Kev,

Can you share what sorts of concerns made the Walther PDP a no go? Function aspect, or logistics and support advantage of going with S&W?

I'm also not Kev, but if I may offer an opinion, Walther and FN both have a history of introducing and dropping new models of handguns at a rate that I'm leery of even giving them a look.

The reason Glock is so prevalent is due to their support system. They simply stomp the competitors.