New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[Austin Millbarge]

Can anybody come up with any hypothetical scenario where a spontaneous discharge of a Sig 320 CAN happen? Let's assume broken/out of spec springs, parts; anything imaginable and unimaginable. I understand people do not like the corporate culture at SIG (Neither do I). But still, we have to be rational. I am sure there are some highly experienced engineers on this forum. Over the years, I have seen many issues (NDs, detonations, and so on) with a lot of different guns. There was always some rational explanation. Except this time.

The striker safety is disengaged, either by the safety spring or lever being out of spec, installed improperly, or just gummed up.

Then you have a tolerance stack issue between the striker extension and sear, resulting in very little contact between the two. Then you apply a little pressure or torque to the frame, which gives you another couple thousandths and voila, the striker extension slips off the sear, pistol fired.

I’ve seen striker blocks deactivated in more than one 320. The spring that is supposed to reset it back in place after firing is tiny. The lever itself is also very small.

[lwt16]

When I’ve seen that sort of response up close, it’s almost always a desperate attempt at ass-covering. I have to wonder if there will be a whistle blower at some point…

You and I are thinking alike. When I saw their response, it solidified my suspicions.

Did this happen when you were shooting the gun or after you released a mag with rounds in it onto the ground?

While shooting.

[TheNewbie]

Fully seated. TLR-1 was attached to the oistol. Safariland 73 series holster, SLS bale.

Thanks. It is my understanding the 73xx series has less opening for foreign debris to get around the trigger vs the 63xx series.


Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge of this situation with us. I am also glad I didn't go down the P320 road when I was considering it. The only thing that stopped me was how light/short the triggers are.

[Texaspoff]

If that is verified, Big Sig will look pretty dumb

I have watched this video hundreds of times in slow motion etc. The pistol is secured, no doubt in my mind. Sig jumped the gun on this and they are going to look stupid when this all shakes out. What they are referring to as the hood, is the gray strap on the tourniquet.

I'm not saying the 320 is flawed, but this is the first clear video of a 320 involved in a holstered ND, where there doesn't appear to be any outside influence, IE things hanging off a jacket, or uniform. The Lt. is also not wearing a load bearing vest with anything hanging off of it, and he isn't pushing maximum density, with his shirt all bunched up. There didn't appear to be any finger banging of the pistol, and no poor handling or safety rule failures.

The one variable that is consistent in all of these reported ND events, is movement of some type. No 320 has just gone off by itself sitting static. There is something imparting force on the trigger causing these discharges. The majority of the time it can be contributed to not adhering to the rules of safe firearms handling and or inattention while carrying, allowing things to migrate into the holster, things of that nature.

This particular incident seems to be an outlier, and I am very interested to see what the final cause is found to be, if it is found at all.

Here are some images I was able to come up with showing the orientation of the pistol in relation to the black tab that covers the hood/bail and thumb shelf on the hood. It is clear the pistol is sitting well below that tab, thus indicating is was fully seated in the holster and secured. If in fact the pistol was as high out of the holster as Sig suggests, the pistol would have likely tipped forward and fallen out of the holster with any body movement at all by the Lt.

Red circle=grab resistant tab over the bail.
Yellow Circle= magazine baseplate
Green circle=grey strap on the tourniquet


This is the grab resistant tab, red circle. This can be used as a point of reference for the video.


Not my image, but here is one of their officers with their duty holster, pistol and tourniquet.




TXPO

[Archer1440]

Can anybody come up with any hypothetical scenario where a spontaneous discharge of a Sig 320 CAN happen? Let's assume broken/out of spec springs, parts; anything imaginable and unimaginable. I understand people do not like the corporate culture at SIG (Neither do I). But still, we have to be rational. I am sure there are some highly experienced engineers on this forum. Over the years, I have seen many issues (NDs, detonations, and so on) with a lot of different guns. There was always some rational explanation. Except this time.

True, but as highly experienced engineers (33 years here not counting school) we tend to keep our soup coolers shut unless we have data and facts, both of which are conspicuously absent in this case.

[JoeTom]

I believe the Air Force recently selected Surefire lights and Sig optics to get gradually rolled out for all Security Forces Airmen's M18s. That will mean new holsters from Safariland I assume. I'll be interested to see if we start getting any reports of pistols going off in holsters when we move to a bigger WML holster bucket. Especially since we carry the M18 with the safety off.

[lwt16]

@cheby

I’ve suspected for some time that a twisting of the grip module towards the body, while the slide is trapped by a holster, in a copy with loose tolerances for sear engagement, and bad/missing/jammed spring…….with a loaded chamber……


Can cause a P320 to discharge without a trigger pull.

At least I think that’s what happened to our guy.

His copy was a crap build. He’s former SF and squared away. Once I inspected the pistol at the armorer level, I was convinced he did nothing wrong.

My copy hasn’t been carried since.

Regards.

[maximus83]

@cheby

I’ve suspected for some time that a twisting of the grip module towards the body, while the slide is trapped by a holster, in a copy with loose tolerances for sear engagement, and bad/missing/jammed spring…….with a loaded chamber……


Can cause a P320 to discharge without a trigger pull.

At least I think that’s what happened to our guy.

His copy was a crap build. He’s former SF and squared away. Once I inspected the pistol at the armorer level, I was convinced he did nothing wrong.

My copy hasn’t been carried since.

Regards.

That sounds bad. Glad I got rid of my two 320's as I just didn't trust them, even before all these latest issues cropped up.

Also, your woes with your 365 TacOps has me spooked. My other 2 365's, and my TacOps, have been fine so far with everything from cheap 115gr to 147gr HST and UW hardcast. I can't seem to make the TacOps fail, so far. That's with a huge, definitive sample of three factory mags. But now a virus has been planted in my mind: Don't. Trust. Sig.

[lwt16]

That sounds bad. Glad I got rid of my two 320's as I just didn't trust them, even before all these latest issues cropped up.

Also, your woes with your 365 TacOps has me spooked. My other 2 365's, and my TacOps, have been fine so far with everything from cheap 115gr to 147gr HST and UW hardcast. I can't seem to make the TacOps fail, so far. That's with a huge, definitive sample of three factory mags. But now a virus has been planted in my mind: Don't. Trust. Sig.

I think the Tacops is gonna run now that I’ve taken the WML off.

If it’s not that, it’s a bad mag/follower/spring or a combo.

I wouldn’t discount the 365 just yet. I’m an armorer on those as well and their design is much better than the 320. Opinion, of course, but the lack of drama in the 365 backs that up.

[Texaspoff]

I think the Tacops is gonna run now that I’ve taken the WML off.

If it’s not that, it’s a bad mag/follower/spring or a combo.

I wouldn’t discount the 365 just yet. I’m an armorer on those as well and their design is much better than the 320. Opinion, of course, but the lack of drama in the 365 backs that up.

I agree, the 365 is a far simpler design, and the tolerance differences don't have as much of an effect on the 365's.



TXPO