New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[sickeness]

The QLS rigs were super hot at my old place, because the SWAT guys were using them. The guys using them claimed the 'standoff' the unit provided made their draw faster. In reality, it was cool guy gear. It was a problem because people were buying them and installing them by themselves.....doing an unauthorized modification of a department holster. I eventually approved the QLS-L (locking) version, because I'm sorry, but patrol officers have no reason to quickly take their holster off of their duty belt. I had one on one of my training belts, but that was solely because we were evaluating multiple different holsters at that time. I did NOT have one on my patrol duty belt.

Not sure what world you are living in but in my area the QLS is pretty much universaly used by most local agencies. Funny, I remember the days where the old guys would call a tourniquet "cool guy tactical gear" and that the hobble you already carried functioned fine for that purpose. Wearing an external vest was also considered "cool guy gear", nevermind the fact that distributing the load evenly saved your lower back from chronic sciatica that pervades our line of work. Let's not forget that up until less than 10 years ago, RDS was also considered "cool guy gear" by many.

Having a QLS solely for the fact that I can detach my holster and place it into the trunk of a patrol vehicle while entering a jail with an arrestee is worth it alone in both safety and convenience. Most guys I see just toss the unholstered it into the trunk thats already full of shit exposed trigger and all.

No offense but the term "cool guy gear" to me basically means, "I'm old, I'm not used to it and I don't like it or want to learn it".

[HeavyDuty]

Have we discussed a potential problem with reassembly?

I stole this from Reddit: user u/flatbreadcrisis

Possible Cause for P320 Accidental Discharges: Reassembly Error State…

I saw this yesterday, but I haven’t had a chance to test it.

[lwt16]

Definitely gives mine a dead trigger. I’m pretty sure the striker dropped when I smacked the slide.

I need a primed case to test it.

But yeah, it definitely screws the trigger up reassembling mine in this way.

Can someone post the link to the Reddit post?

[HeavyDuty]

I wonder if this is the secret? And if it is, did SIG really not find it already?

I need to find one of my P320 manuals (or online) to see what they describe as the proper method of reassembly. If that’s documented, they may be taking the internal position that any other way is misuse.

[call_me_ski]

www.reddit DOT com/r/SigSauer/s/kTvRDxh2Cv

[Rex G]

Have we discussed a potential problem with reassembly?

I stole this from Reddit: user u/flatbreadcrisis

Possible Cause for P320 Accidental Discharges: Reassembly Error State

The Sig P320 can be assembled with the trigger group in an 'error state', in which the sear can drop unexpectedly and the trigger reset mechanism may malfunction.

\*\* Edit: link to pic of slide lock interacting in this way where the issue lies: There an extension on the trigger that has to push up but is blocked by a bar the disassembly lever moves into place. When the disassembly lever is rotated back, in order for that bar to move back forward out of the way the slide lock lever has to move upwards so a notch can slip back into place in a hole in the slide lock.


Second Pic showing sear engagement when it shouldnt:

Let's assume the slide is off of your P320 Pistol. The correct reassembly is as follows:

1. Put the slide on the rails
2. Pull the slide all the way to the rear
3. **Engage The Slide Hold to Lock the Slide Rearward By Pressing It Upwards (This is the critical step)**
4. Flip the disassembly lever and release the slide.

This is the correct reassembled state for the gun. However it is possible to get problems by simply doing this instead:

*3. Hold the slide to the rear manually with your hands, and leave the slide release in the downwards position.(this is wrong)*

While holding the slide back, you flip the lever and the gun will reassemble fine, and the trigger will appear to work. It may be a dead trigger at first, but a quick rack of the slide recocks and it seems fine. **However**\*\*,\*\* **by failing to push the slide release upwards at any point, the trigger is now in an error state**. It will remain so until the slide release is pushed upwards. In this state, the gun can be set off even by a firm shake, most commonly if the user pulls the slide part of the way back, then releases it forward (Similar to how you may check the chamber for a live round, not wanting to eject it.)

The trigger feels a bit squishy and off, not the usual pressure and firm snap but still you can hear the striker drop when pulled, and to an unsuspecting user it seems normal.In this state, a user could then put a magazine in the gun, then rack the slide, chambering a round, all without engaging the slide lock upwards. They would then pull the slide part ways back to inspect that a live round was in the chamber, setting the sear even more precariously than a full rack seems to, then maybe holster the gun. A sharp bump or shake is sufficient to often drop the sear in this state and set off a round.

The solution is simple, pull the slide all the way back again, and push up on the slide lock. You will hear a firm click as the trigger resets to a correct state. But it's pretty scary that you could end up in this state without ever having done anything apparently wrong. Most other guns you may be used to like Glocks don't require this critical step for their trigger upon reassembling.

This is quite concerning! I can imagine plenty of folks making this error, during reassembly. (I am not being hypocritically judgmental. My tendency to make “slip-and-capture” errors is something that I acknowledge.)

[Suvorov]

Honestly - the fact that is pistol is in the hand of PVT Snuffy and there hasn’t been widespread mayhem is amazing to me.

If a gun can be reassembled incorrectly, Snuffy will find a way (and then about 10,000 other ways….).

[Lon]

I wonder if this is the secret? And if it is, did SIG really not find it already?

I need to find one of my P320 manuals (or online) to see what they describe as the proper method of reassembly. If that’s documented, they may be taking the internal position that any other way is misuse.

From 320 manual from Sig’s website

[Clusterfrack]

I just read that Reddit thread... and wow. That looks like another critically serious design flaw in the 320. Can anyone who still owns one try to recreate this condition (safely)? @HCM, @GJM?

Have we discussed a potential problem with reassembly?

I stole this from Reddit: user u/flatbreadcrisis

Possible Cause for P320 Accidental Discharges: Reassembly Error State

The Sig P320 can be assembled with the trigger group in an 'error state', in which the sear can drop unexpectedly and the trigger reset mechanism may malfunction.

\*\* Edit: link to pic of slide lock interacting in this way where the issue lies: There an extension on the trigger that has to push up but is blocked by a bar the disassembly lever moves into place. When the disassembly lever is rotated back, in order for that bar to move back forward out of the way the slide lock lever has to move upwards so a notch can slip back into place in a hole in the slide lock.


Second Pic showing sear engagement when it shouldnt:

Let's assume the slide is off of your P320 Pistol. The correct reassembly is as follows:

1. Put the slide on the rails
2. Pull the slide all the way to the rear
3. **Engage The Slide Hold to Lock the Slide Rearward By Pressing It Upwards (This is the critical step)**
4. Flip the disassembly lever and release the slide.

This is the correct reassembled state for the gun. However it is possible to get problems by simply doing this instead:

*3. Hold the slide to the rear manually with your hands, and leave the slide release in the downwards position.(this is wrong)*

While holding the slide back, you flip the lever and the gun will reassemble fine, and the trigger will appear to work. It may be a dead trigger at first, but a quick rack of the slide recocks and it seems fine. **However**\*\*,\*\* **by failing to push the slide release upwards at any point, the trigger is now in an error state**. It will remain so until the slide release is pushed upwards. In this state, the gun can be set off even by a firm shake, most commonly if the user pulls the slide part of the way back, then releases it forward (Similar to how you may check the chamber for a live round, not wanting to eject it.)

The trigger feels a bit squishy and off, not the usual pressure and firm snap but still you can hear the striker drop when pulled, and to an unsuspecting user it seems normal.In this state, a user could then put a magazine in the gun, then rack the slide, chambering a round, all without engaging the slide lock upwards. They would then pull the slide part ways back to inspect that a live round was in the chamber, setting the sear even more precariously than a full rack seems to, then maybe holster the gun. A sharp bump or shake is sufficient to often drop the sear in this state and set off a round.

The solution is simple, pull the slide all the way back again, and push up on the slide lock. You will hear a firm click as the trigger resets to a correct state. But it's pretty scary that you could end up in this state without ever having done anything apparently wrong. Most other guns you may be used to like Glocks don't require this critical step for their trigger upon reassembling.

[AMC]

Not sure what world you are living in but in my area the QLS is pretty much universaly used by most local agencies. Funny, I remember the days where the old guys would call a tourniquet "cool guy tactical gear" and that the hobble you already carried functioned fine for that purpose. Wearing an external vest was also considered "cool guy gear", nevermind the fact that distributing the load evenly saved your lower back from chronic sciatica that pervades our line of work. Let's not forget that up until less than 10 years ago, RDS was also considered "cool guy gear" by many.

Having a QLS solely for the fact that I can detach my holster and place it into the trunk of a patrol vehicle while entering a jail with an arrestee is worth it alone in both safety and convenience. Most guys I see just toss the unholstered it into the trunk thats already full of shit exposed trigger and all.

No offense but the term "cool guy gear" to me basically means, "I'm old, I'm not used to it and I don't like it or want to learn it".

This was a thoughtful post, so I will give a thoughtful reply.

First, yes, I guess I am getting old. Turned 57 a couple of months ago, and I've been retired from my department for just over 18 months. I did over 30 years.....the last 4 of which was in charge of firearms training. It is without boast or exaggeration that I say that in that 4 years we accomplished more change than in the previous 25 years. Granted, that wasn't hard because there really hadn't been any in that time. And there were several changes we attempted to make that were blocked by higher management, including on both the training and equipment fronts.

Your apprehension that I am one of those folks who is against change and new equipment is incorrect. We bought, tested and eventually approved a version of the QLS unit. While I understand the convenience of the QLS for the use you described, we also had several breakages of the units that caused us to go the way we did. As for external vests, my office was involved in both testing armor from the vendors, and testing and recommending ammo pouches and medical pouches for the vests that were vast improvements over what the vendor supplied. We also made recommendations for pouch placement and supplemental training for the new equipment.

That all said....leave it to cops to screw up a good thing. The department policy for external vests and the recommendations for equipment placing have been ignored by most officers wearing them since before I left. Not only is equipment placed in positions where it is difficult to access quickly, but it interferes with the use of other items. Also, many officers have used the external carriers as an excuse to carry ever more gear, sometimes to a preposterous extent. They have traded future lower back problems for neck and shoulder issues, unfortunately. I get it....cops like useful gear. But do you really need to be carrying traffic wands and digital evidence cameras on your vest? Anyway, not everything needs to come off of the belt.

The Instagram generation is very much influenced by cool appearances, sometimes over and above utility. Not all of them, but a lot. Can't tell you how many times the answer to "Why are you doing/carrying 'X' thing?" was "Because it looks cool AF."

In short, while we should always be striving to innovate and evaluate new gear, training, tactics, etc., sometimes the gear isn't the answer. If you can barely pass an LE handgun qualification, the drop leg Safariland on a QLS isn't gonna help.

A red dot, though? Yeah, that's just a no brainer at this point. Red dot all the way.