New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[Lon]

Like him or not, he ain’t wrong.

[jlw]

For comparison, on the left is a very recently produced US Duty Gear WML holster.

[MVS]

I have seen a ND with a Glock in a Safariland WML holster on the range. The officer was wearing a North Face Denali fleece and one of the little drawstring drums worked itself into the trigger guard as he was re-holstering and "PoP!" Luckily it just blew a hole in the bottom of the holster and shot into the dirt, but scared the crap out of him and the guy next to him. The drum was bit enough and at just the right angle and tension (and he applied enough re-holstering force) that it overcame the trigger safety. I'm sure there are lots of things that slipped into a Safariland WML holster that was blocked on a Glock or M&P by the trigger safety tab, but we will never know because the gun never went bang.

The P320 has no safety tab which makes it susceptible to minor pressure on the side of the trigger causing it to actuate unlike most striker fired guns.

This was a P320 in a Serpa carried loose in a purse (with other stuff):
https://abc7chicago.com/sig-sauer-la...arge/10974219/

I'd bet a box of 44 Special that the Serpa mechanism actuated, the gun came slightly unholstered, and something else worked its way into the trigger guard, and as the purse moved it actuated the trigger causing it to discharge. Would this have happened on Glock? Way less likely because of the trigger safety tab.

Ashley Catatao of Sommersville PD (Mass) was carrying a bunch duty gear with it flapping against her side (it's on video) when it smacked into her holster and "PoP!"

Most Safariland duty holsters angle the muzzle either slightly back or back quite a bit. If you are wearing a duty belt and not touching the gun at all and drew an imaginary line from the muzzle it typically wouldn't intersect a human body part (if you don't have your hand (or elbow for the short folks) on the gun then typically an "uncommanded" discharge would put a round into the floor or the seat of the car, not into a leg). Most of us know if we rest our hand on our gun (which lots of us do) that downward pressure cants the holster in towards our leg or feet.

Since quite a few of the lawsuits against SIG are claiming the gun shot them into the leg or ankle, it makes sense that there was downward pressure applied on the gun in the holster at the time it discharged, which would cant it towards the body, when the gun went off. That same pressure could hypothetically also cause the trigger to actuate if it was caught against a foreign object or part of the holster.

So if there is pressure (a swinging heavy duty bag or pressure from a hand/arm) is it really un-commanded? None of these guns were sitting stationary on a shelf in an empty room when they fired.

Mere impact such as smacking a mallet or object against a post-recall gun typically can't make the striker release. Therefore it only makes sense something is likely causing the trigger to actuate and the gun to function and discharge.

I said it earlier in this thread, but it appears to be a poor interface with the holster and/or human error. I don't want to let SIG off the hook (or the holster companies), but I think it is what it is.

The P320 in X5 Legion guise is extremely common in recreational action pistol shooting. I don't think we're hearing lots of complaints from those circles about the guns "just going off." The complaints are primarily from LE folks using plastic bucket Safariland duty holsters (or a Serpa in a purse).

A super easy trigger to pull is truly a super easy trigger to pull. When there are not mechanical safeties (like on a 1911/2011) to keep that super easy trigger to pull from being pulled...well...I think we are seeing what that gets.

The reports of numerous problems in competition setting is what has me questioning keeping my Sigs as match guns, not the LE stuff. There are a lot of problems reported but everyone blows it off as ammo or mod related.

[HCM]

The reports of numerous problems in competition setting is what has me questioning keeping my Sigs as match guns, not the LE stuff. There are a lot of problems reported but everyone blows it off as ammo or mod related.

The one “match AD” video involving the X5 Legion allegedly “in holster” making the rounds a while back had two issues:

1) The poster claimed the gun was stock when in fact the gun was extensively modified with Armory Craft parts.
2) The poster failed to mention he sat on the video for two years and only released it when it became clear SIG would not give him a cash settlement.

Credibility issues aside, the problem with reports of 320 issues at matches is there are so many ammo and mod related issues with other platforms including CZs, 1911/2011 and even Glocks it makes discerning the “320 issues” from “general competitor goober” issues difficult.

[Tokarev]

SIG's new sales slogan:

Free with each 320 is the buyer's choice of a vasectomy or circumcision. Buy an extra magazine and we'll include a free castration!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[GJM]

The reports of numerous problems in competition setting is what has me questioning keeping my Sigs as match guns, not the LE stuff. There are a lot of problems reported but everyone blows it off as ammo or mod related.

Are you referring to spontaneous discharge or other issues with the 320 in match settings?

[sickeness]

I just posted this in the LE section, but I'll do it here as well:

I've talked at length in other posts about how I believe a lot of the ND issues with the P320 are due to a combination of the lack of trigger safety (the tab like on a Glock or pretty much every other striker-fired polymer pistol) and the poor interface with Safariland and other modern duty holsters.

I apologize for the garage photos, but my kids are asleep and I didn't want to make a bunch of noise.

The holster is the latest version of the Safariland 7360RDS with the band around it. The gun is a completely stock SIG M18. The round pictured is 45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ which I'm using to represent a finger or other foreign object.

The gun is completely seated in the holster with both the SLS and ALS mechanism engaged and the holster has been properly adjusted for the correct tension.

Use your imagination to picture how a ND could happen and keep in mind most LE P320's are not a M18 with a manual safety.

Also keep in mind if there is a foreign object or if it was a human finger likely the object would be gone after the ND and thus the gun would pass all safety/function checks as would the holster.

I'll let the pictures talk:


...and if you think the new Mexican-made 6360RDS series holsters are any better with this I assure you they are not.

Sariland's answer to this is the SafariVault which just came out and is only sort-of available at the moment.

No offense but it's quite a leap to assume that the trigger gap is directly responsible for all of the obvious NDs that have been occurring including the most recent one in the video. I spend a lot of my time on duty with LAPD and 90% of the Officers there are still using the old 6360s with a gap so big that you can literally insert your thumb into the trigger guard and pull it, yet for an agency of 10k+ sworn I don't think that they have ever had an uncommanded holster ND. I also don't understand the "poor interface" comment other than the gap, does the gun fit into the holster with a lot of lateral play? I personally have absolute faith in the 6 series holsters and I have also had no problems with the 7 series I am currently issued.

[JCS]

The reports of numerous problems in competition setting is what has me questioning keeping my Sigs as match guns, not the LE stuff. There are a lot of problems reported but everyone blows it off as ammo or mod related.

I forgot I had these photos still from my mini kaboom. It wasn’t violent just blew off the ejector. But I couldn’t trust the platform fully after that. When I got home I did some more examination of the factory barrel and compared it to other guns and I put a factory round in the barrel and it will literally jiggle in the chamber it is so loose, not to mention the amount of the case that is not supported by anything.

[MVS]

Are you referring to spontaneous discharge or other issues with the 320 in match settings?

Mostly the OOB discharges.

[KevH]

No offense but it's quite a leap to assume that the trigger gap is directly responsible for all of the obvious NDs that have been occurring including the most recent one in the video. I spend a lot of my time on duty with LAPD and 90% of the Officers there are still using the old 6360s with a gap so big that you can literally insert your thumb into the trigger guard and pull it, yet for an agency of 10k+ sworn I don't think that they have ever had an uncommanded holster ND. I also don't understand the "poor interface" comment other than the gap, does the gun fit into the holster with a lot of lateral play? I personally have absolute faith in the 6 series holsters and I have also had no problems with the 7 series I am currently issued.

Go read through my posts in the last 10 or so pages of this thread. The issue isn't just the holster. I've spent 23 years using Safariland holsters and since 2014 have been using a 6360 and later 6360RDS with a Glock and X300 that allows some access to the trigger guard. While I won't go so far to say it isn't a problem, it isn't a huge deal.

What saves the Glock (and just about every other striker-fired polymer pistol) is the trigger safety (the tab on the trigger or hinge on older M&P's). The P320 does not have any such mechanism. If it did, I doubt we would have this massive thread.

To cause a Glock/VP9/FN-509/M&P trigger to actuate this safety must be disabled by full finger, or full foreign object, pressure across the trigger and force.

Since the P320 does not have this the slightest pressure on a super small portion of the trigger face can actuate it. Any type of object that get's in there and applies pressure to the slide of the trigger face can potentially function the gun and cause the gun to fire.

What actions are common with many of the P320 ND videos and stories? Pressure either down on the pistol or torquing the grip to the side (forcing the grip in towards the officer or away from him).

I've been to the P320 armorer's class, own a few, and have plenty of experience with the gun. I really don't think the post-update guns are just firing themselves. I think the combo of holster interface and no trigger safety are leading to much of what we are seeing.