New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[Sig_Fiend]

Certainly a Ruger Security Six would be safer.

As far as run-of-the-mill striker fired handguns go, I do consider it quite safe. At least two parts would need to fail simultaneously for the gun to fire uncommanded in the holster due to some sort of mechanical failure. That’s both sear surfaces OR the striker lug, and the striker drop safety. This is the same amount of redundancies as the Glock Safe Action. A striker drop safety (commonly referred to as a safety plunger), and either the cruciform OR the striker lug.

This is in terms of the gun being able to fire without the trigger being pulled, which is what the plaintiff appears to be alleging.

It's a bit more than that with Glock:

• Partially-cocked striker
• Firing pin safety is located farther forward. If the firing pin snaps, there is less mass forward of the FPS.
• The drop safety is the ledge built into the trigger housing. There's no realistic way that can fail and allow cruciform movement, short of crushing it in a hydraulic press.
• Trigger safety

Also, firing pin safety design is different between the P320 and most other reputable semi autos. Most have a sizable steel cylinder or block that is simple in design, spring-loaded with a coil spring, and physically impedes firing pin movement until depressed. The p320 uses a lever arm with an elbow spring. Maybe this is a non-issue, but it's also non-standard compared to most other reputable semi autos on the market.

[LowLead]

Partially-cocked striker

As far as I know, that is hearsay likely propagated on the internet by Glock’s Cutaway pistol. Yes the striker moves rearward enough to clear one of the drop safeties, but how do you know this pre-tensioned striker theory works?

I wouldn’t bet on an unadvertised safety feature that I’ve never seen shown off, especially when it comes to something like a gun.

Firing pin safety is located farther forward. If the firing pin snaps, there is less mass forward of the FPS.

I can’t imagine how that would matter. If the striker splits in any position in front of the spring cups, on either platform, the gun won’t fire, unless you’re somehow concerned about slam firing. Are you saying if the striker breaks behind the spring cups? Confused by this.

The drop safety is the ledge built into the trigger housing. There's no realistic way that can fail and allow cruciform movement, short of crushing it in a hydraulic press.

This is a drop safety. We’ve removed the human element since the scenario in the article mentions the police officer was cleared of wrongdoing. We’re talking about redundancy built into the firearm to prevent it from firing seemingly on its own. It can certainly allow the gun to fire uncommanded. Without the cruciform or striker lug meeting each other, this safety, along with the rest of the trigger bar, is useless. After that, as mentioned, only one part prevents firing, which is the firing pin safety.

Trigger safety

This again has nothing to do with catastrophic failure of the gun causing it to fire uncommanded. This prevents the trigger from self pulling in the event the firearm is dropped on it’s back plate.

[HCM]

As far as I know, that is hearsay likely propagated on the internet by Glock’s Cutaway pistol. Yes the striker moves rearward enough to clear one of the drop safeties, but how do you know this pre-tensioned striker theory works?

I wouldn’t bet on an unadvertised safety feature that I’ve never seen shown off, especially when it comes to something like a gun.


I can’t imagine how that would matter. If the striker splits in any position in front of the spring cups, on either platform, the gun won’t fire, unless you’re somehow concerned about slam firing. Are you saying if the striker breaks behind the spring cups? Confused by this.


This is a drop safety. We’ve removed the human element since the scenario in the article mentions the police officer was cleared of wrongdoing. We’re talking about redundancy built into the firearm to prevent it from firing seemingly on its own. It can certainly allow the gun to fire uncommanded. Without the cruciform or striker lug meeting each other, this safety, along with the rest of the trigger bar, is useless. After that, as mentioned, only one part prevents firing, which is the firing pin safety.


This again has nothing to do with catastrophic failure of the gun causing it to fire uncommanded. This prevents the trigger from self pulling in the event the firearm is dropped on it’s back plate.

The partially cocked striker is why ATF classified the Glock as “Double action only” which essentially lead to Glock acceptance and subsequent dominance of the US LE market.

That doesn’t give Glock a free pass. The original block design was not 100% drop safe and the so-called upgrade program in the early 90s from the Black internals to the silver/chrome plated internals was the result of several incidents which reached ahead when Glock failed drug testing with the DEA. Walk responded with a “upgrade “program in Lou of an acknowledged recall just like SIG did a few decades later.,

While current production P320 appear to have addressed the outcome of this fire issue there are a lot of original design guns out there that have never been upgraded and again some people that are intentionally not upgrading them because they believe they will become collectors items as the original design non-upgraded Glocks have become.

While there are some instances of Uncommanded fire with original and upgraded original P320s, I am suspicious of claims of uncommanded fire by LE. There have been two negligent discharges involving members of my agency which occurred on ranges during agency training and were witnessed by our FIs. Both of these instances were negligent discharges in which the individual pull the trigger unintentionally. In one instance the individual acknowledged their mistake the other individual refuses to do so and has filed their own lawsuit against SIG despite the agency finding it was a negligent rather than mechanical discharge..

Despite this I have seen both of those incidents improperly cited in other P320 lawsuits as “uncommanded fire” incidents Despite the fact there is clear evidence to the contrary.

[LowLead]

Ah yes, our government and their lovely ability to classify things.

[psalms144.1]

In the interest of being technically correct, a Double Action Only pistol is one wherein the trigger ALWAYS performs two actions. The Glock "Safe Action" trigger first fully tensions, then releases the striker - hence it's correct description as DAO.

The P320 is a Single Action Pistol - fully tensioned striker and the trigger only moves the sear which enables the striker to release to fire.

Lots of folks like the P320. The fact that others do not like or trust it shouldn't be taken personally. Same thing goes for 1911s, Glocks, revolvers, whatever. We should get emotionally attached to people and pets, not hardware.

[LowLead]

I’m just a fan of machines, and how they work. Nothing personal. My username might give a clue

I own both, have had success and issues with both.

Academics aside, I just feel it’ll be hard for this police officer to prove by a preponderance of evidence that the P320, which met international safety standards even prior to the upgrade program, AND is on her state’s gun roster, caused injury. The only way a pre-upgrade P320 would fire is if it were dropped, which Sig claims in the owner manual is abusive handling and may cause the gun to fire. Hard to sue with disclaimers like that.

Too bad we can’t have the P250 back. That’d eliminate a lot of these questions. Gun designs seem easy come easy go for Sig these days it seems.

[Bucky]

Academics aside, I just feel it’ll be hard for this police officer to prove by a preponderance of evidence that the P320, which met international safety standards even prior to the upgrade program, AND is on her state’s gun roster, caused injury. The only way a pre-upgrade P320 would fire is if it were dropped, which Sig claims in the owner manual is abusive handling and may cause the gun to fire. Hard to sue with disclaimers like that.

Well to be fair, Sig actually advertised the gun to be drop safe. They made a big point that you don’t need a trigger dongle to be dropped safe.

[LowLead]

Technically it was. Sig doesn’t invent drop safety standards, ANSI, SAAMI, DOJ, and the NIJ do. Sig claims a pre-upgrade P320 still meets these standards.

[HCM]

I’m just a fan of machines, and how they work. Nothing personal. My username might give a clue

I own both, have had success and issues with both.

Academics aside, I just feel it’ll be hard for this police officer to prove by a preponderance of evidence that the P320, which met international safety standards even prior to the upgrade program, AND is on her state’s gun roster, caused injury. The only way a pre-upgrade P320 would fire is if it were dropped, which Sig claims in the owner manual is abusive handling and may cause the gun to fire. Hard to sue with disclaimers like that.

Too bad we can’t have the P250 back. That’d eliminate a lot of these questions. Gun designs seem easy come easy go for Sig these days it seems.

Some of the people you’re arguing with in this thread have first-hand experience investigating negligent and accidental discharges and with P320s.

Opinions are like a*****es everyone has one. PF is not like other gun forums, If you have actual first-hand experience with these issues please share it. If not save everyone the aggravation of your pre-conceived notions.

The original P320 design had real issues whether it fits your preconceive notion or not. There have also been examples documented here of upgraded original P320 models having issues. Unfortunately the upgrade program was not consistent and how the guns were upgraded.

So I might be someone who works for a large agency whose version of the P320 was the basis for the current actually drop safe design or maybe I’m a 14-year-old girl living in my moms basement it’s the Internet you get what you pay for it.

[HCM]

Well to be fair, Sig actually advertised the gun to be drop safe. They made a big point that you don’t need a trigger dongle to be dropped safe.

That is true because the trigger bar in the P320 moves in the opposite direction of other pistols.,