New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[Texaspoff]

A friend of mine blew up his 320 Legion on Saturday morning. It is now on the way back to Sig. It almost looks like one of those Glock cut out guns. You can still see the case, and it is slightly out of the chamber, suggesting and out of battery failure.

Attachment 114569

Attachment 114570

Attachment 114571

Not trying to muddy the water, but here is a P320, fully in battery, notice the space between the barrel and slide. The Legion in you images looks to be about the same distance, although it appears exaggerated due to the extractor missing. If you look at the top the barrel hood, it is flush against the breech face. I believe this was a case failure.

I get the reloading for year and so on, but unless he is using once fired or new brass, there is always the possibility of a stressed case. It easy to make sure you don't overcharge a load, but very hard to see a hair line case stress fracture.

The 320's do appear to have a good deal more spacing between the barrel chamber and breech facing than some other pistols, and that along with any weakened or overcharged case could cause an issue. Lacking case support doesn't always mean it in the feed ramp area.





TXPO

[GJM]

Not trying to muddy the water, but here is a P320, fully in battery, notice the space between the barrel and slide. The Legion in you images looks to be about the same distance, although it appears exaggerated due to the extractor missing. If you look at the top the barrel hood, it is flush against the breech face. I believe this was a case failure.

I get the reloading for year and so on, but unless he is using once fired or new brass, there is always the possibility of a stressed case. It easy to make sure you don't overcharge a load, but very hard to see a hair line case stress fracture.

The 320's do appear to have a good deal more spacing between the barrel chamber and breech facing than some other pistols, and that along with any weakened or overcharged case could cause an issue. Lacking case support doesn't always mean it in the feed ramp area.





TXPO

I agree that the safe bet is an ammo problem. I mention my friend's background reloading and OCD personality because he is not "that guy" where you see frequent reloading problems at matches and it is a question of when not off.

It is funny that the 320 Legion seems to attract a lot of these "bad rounds" though?

[Texaspoff]

I agree that the safe bet is an ammo problem. I mention my friend's background reloading and OCD personality because he is not "that guy" where you see frequent reloading problems at matches and it is a question of when not off.

It is funny that the 320 Legion seems to attract a lot of these "bad rounds" though?

Agreed, It does seem to affect the Legion series more than other models.



TXPO

[Wondering Beard]

From a unit perspective the aggravating thing is that we can't install any optics ourselves; it has to be sent up to an armorer to install.

I've always got the feeling SIG went with their mounting pattern/sytem to make sure their future designed optic would be selected instead of making a more common pattern which would have invited more competition....

Did somebody say Windows?

[AMC]

I agree that the safe bet is an ammo problem. I mention my friend's background reloading and OCD personality because he is not "that guy" where you see frequent reloading problems at matches and it is a question of when not off.

It is funny that the 320 Legion seems to attract a lot of these "bad rounds" though?

Is it possible that there are more Legions in use in competitions than other 320 models? That has been my observation.

ETA: and it looks like @Texaspoff is coming to the same conclusion as me as to the reason behind the Signade phenomenon.

[Texaspoff]

Is it possible that there are more Legions in use in competitions than other 320 models? That has been my observation.

ETA: and it looks like @Texaspoff is coming to the same conclusion as me as to the reason behind the Signade phenomenon.

That's entirely plausible, especially considering a lot of competition guys do their own reloading. As before, most reloaders take care when doing it, but even if a case is only once fired, it could have a failure point, and it's virtually impossible to see it.

I don't believe the 320 can fire out of battery, the mechanics of the firecontrol and lock up won't allow it to happen with a properly functioning pistol. What I think is happening is, the large amount of space between the chamber/barrel face and the breech face, along with a weakened case, or overcharged round, can lead to a blow out.

With this space between the barrel and breech, I think those who have had this type of failure are calling it an out of battery detonation, as it can give that appearance with the 320's design in that area.

I haven't researched it enough to give a definitive answer, but I don't believe we have seen a Sig kaboom with main stream factory ammo, such as Federal, Winchester, PMC, Remington, Etc. I believe they have all involved either reloads or remanufactured ammo, or some of the much smaller not to mainstream manufactures.

Not saying it can't or hasn't happened with any of the big brands, I'm just familiar with a particular incident. I also believe the chances of a case failure go up exponentially even with a once fired round, due to case stress, even with a standard reload. Brass just doesn't seem to be as good of quality as it was in the past. I'm sure as a cost saving measure, case manufacturers are making them with thinner case walls to save money. They aren't worried about if their rounds are reloaded so, and they don't have to worry about liability if they are reloaded. As long as their rounds go bang the first time without failures, they are good.

Crappy brass was one of the reasons I go out of reloading. It became less cost effective as it was years ago, and my PD pays for all my rounds now...


TXPO

[jeep45238]

Was cleaning my Gray Guns upper, and realized that when re-installing the striker, the striker block had to be in a VERY precise orientation for successful installation - not a lot of wiggle room, and the block wouldn't lower itself to the correct orientation. Given the thin shape of the block, and precise slot it has to interface with the striker, if this happens while in the slide I don't think it's possible to correct without removing the striker from the slide.

A little later, I started thinking about this.

Is it possible that the kabooms we're seeing of late is caused by a striker that didn't retract from the breech face under recoil, effectively making the pistol a closed bolt/fixed firing pin gun (even if for only one round)? Dirty striker/channel/breech from higher round count, uncleaned guns could make this more likely.

This may have the potential to cause a discharge as the cartridge rides up the breech face, or as the cartridge itself is chambered. it would also make the conversations regarding disconnectors/OOB irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the fire control/chamber support/lockup at that point.

[Clusterfrack]

Was cleaning my Gray Guns upper, and realized that when re-installing the striker, the striker block had to be in a VERY precise orientation for successful installation - not a lot of wiggle room, and the block wouldn't lower itself to the correct orientation. Given the thin shape of the block, and precise slot it has to interface with the striker, if this happens while in the slide I don't think it's possible to correct without removing the striker from the slide.

A little later, I started thinking about this.

Is it possible that the kabooms we're seeing of late is caused by a striker that didn't retract from the breech face under recoil, effectively making the pistol a closed bolt/fixed firing pin gun (even if for only one round)? Dirty striker/channel/breech from higher round count, uncleaned guns could make this more likely.

This may have the potential to cause a discharge as the cartridge rides up the breech face, or as the cartridge itself is chambered. it would also make the conversations regarding disconnectors/OOB irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the fire control/chamber support/lockup at that point.

If you have the time, closeup images or a video of this would be very helpful.

[GJM]

A friend of mine blew up his 320 Legion on Saturday morning. It is now on the way back to Sig. It almost looks like one of those Glock cut out guns. You can still see the case, and it is slightly out of the chamber, suggesting and out of battery failure.

Attachment 114569

Attachment 114570

Attachment 114571

Quick follow up -- Sig replaced the complete gun, including the optic, except for the FCU which was fine. They removed and reinstalled his custom parts. No charge for anything. Excellent CS!

[jeep45238]

If you have the time, closeup images or a video of this would be very helpful.

Took a few tries to keep springs from falling out of place (don't won't to loose them).