New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[11B10]

A friend of mine blew up his 320 Legion on Saturday morning. It is now on the way back to Sig. It almost looks like one of those Glock cut out guns. You can still see the case, and it is slightly out of the chamber, suggesting and out of battery failure.

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George - those pictures are a total nightmare!

[Dave Williams]

Any details on ammo, injuries?

[BillSWPA]

A friend of mine blew up his 320 Legion on Saturday morning. It is now on the way back to Sig. It almost looks like one of those Glock cut out guns. You can still see the case, and it is slightly out of the chamber, suggesting and out of battery failure.

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I hope your friend is ok. That damage looks like at least the right index finger might have been injured.

[AMC]

A friend of mine blew up his 320 Legion on Saturday morning. It is now on the way back to Sig. It almost looks like one of those Glock cut out guns. You can still see the case, and it is slightly out of the chamber, suggesting and out of battery failure.

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Attachment 114570

Attachment 114571

Yikes. That'll leave a mark. Hope your buddy is okay. I too would be interested to know about the ammo.

I've followed all of the various 320 issues for several years. I have some personal theories about this particular issue (the 'Signade') based on knowledge of the platform, tests conducted by experts (in this case Bruce Gray), and the pattern and type of damage the guns incur in these incidents.

In terms of the 'out of battery detonation' idea, unless we are ready to accuse Bruce Gray of outright fraud in favor of SIG, we have to look at the issue in light of the fact that he modified a 320 to fire much farther out of battery than any of these guns are alleged to have done, but didn't suffer and failures like these. He conducted these tests with factory new ammunition of course, leading to his conclusion that the issue relates to use of reloaded or handloaded ammo. It is stressed cases that are blowing up, not 'unsupported' cases.

I'm beginning to think both sides are correct, to a degree. I think the slightly less supported cases might provide more opportunity for stressed/reloaded cases to fail. This would fit the fact set we've seen so far. This issue appears almost exclusively in.competition guns, though there have been a few instances of LE guns using factory ammo popping as well (same grip module damage pattern). Knowing the quality control issues of even factory ammo over the last 5 years quite intimately, double charges in a factory load don't surprise me.

Looking at the actual damage, it looks like the FCUs are relatively unscathed by these incidents, and the grip modules take the hit (though I know extractors exiting the slides in some of these instances aren't uncommon). I repeat my belief that the damage to the grip modules is likely due to the fact that the modules themselves are not as 'supported' by the metal FCU as the frames of other polymer pistols with their molded in metal components. This is especially true with the TXG Legion modules, which one of their VPs told me were excessively brittle, and he wished they hadn't produced them.

None of this addresses specifically other quality control issues that may exist (like bad batches of grip modules). For those of you with knowledge of platform and it's evolution, what say you?

[HCM]

Yikes. That'll leave a mark. Hope your buddy is okay. I too would be interested to know about the ammo.

I've followed all of the various 320 issues for several years. I have some personal theories about this particular issue (the 'Signade') based on knowledge of the platform, tests conducted by experts (in this case Bruce Gray), and the pattern and type of damage the guns incur in these incidents.

In terms of the 'out of battery detonation' idea, unless we are ready to accuse Bruce Gray of outright fraud in favor of SIG, we have to look at the issue in light of the fact that he modified a 320 to fire much farther out of battery than any of these guns are alleged to have done, but didn't suffer and failures like these. He conducted these tests with factory new ammunition of course, leading to his conclusion that the issue relates to use of reloaded or handloaded ammo. It is stressed cases that are blowing up, not 'unsupported' cases.

I'm beginning to think both sides are correct, to a degree. I think the slightly less supported cases might provide more opportunity for stressed/reloaded cases to fail. This would fit the fact set we've seen so far. This issue appears almost exclusively in.competition guns, though there have been a few instances of LE guns using factory ammo popping as well (same grip module damage pattern). Knowing the quality control issues of even factory ammo over the last 5 years quite intimately, double charges in a factory load don't surprise me.

Looking at the actual damage, it looks like the FCUs are relatively unscathed by these incidents, and the grip modules take the hit (though I know extractors exiting the slides in some of these instances aren't uncommon). I repeat my belief that the damage to the grip modules is likely due to the fact that the modules themselves are not as 'supported' by the metal FCU as the frames of other polymer pistols with their molded in metal components. This is especially true with the TXG Legion modules, which one of their VPs told me were excessively brittle, and he wished they hadn't produced them.

None of this addresses specifically other quality control issues that may exist (like bad batches of grip modules). For those of you with knowledge of platform and it's evolution, what say you?

SIG specifically states the TXG grips should not be used for LE duty due to the brittleness issues.

[HCM]

It’s not like SIG 320s are the only guns to suffer catastrophic failures.

Here’s a Zev OZ-9 that recently suffered a catastrophic failure.

[GJM]

My friend felt stinging in his hands, but no other injury. He was shooting a reload. He has been reloading sixteen years, uses a 1050, and is very meticulous. I have shot many thousands of rounds he loaded for me.

[SwampDweller]

My friend felt stinging in his hands, but no other injury. He was shooting a reload. He has been reloading sixteen years, uses a 1050, and is very meticulous. I have shot many thousands of rounds he loaded for me.

If it wasn't the ammo, what do you think might've caused it?

[Dave Williams]

I feel lucky to have not experienced this in my 320 Spectre Comp shooting thousands of rounds of reman 9mm.

[Yute]

This seems a widespread problem and the Army's solution is apparently loctite.

Honestly, I'm mystified by the M17/M18 optic plate. It doesn't seem like optics compatibility was a requirement of the MHS solicitation - after all, the G19X was not a MOS model, and I don't think many of the MHS entrants had optics capability. Personally I think having the future ability to mount optics is desirable, but where did choosing the LPP footprint with the removable rear sight on the plate come from? Seems a terrible choice, and it isn't like SIG doesn't offer the 320 with an optics plate AND a dovetailed rear sight on the slide. Another issue endurance testing prior to the contract award might have revealed.

From a unit perspective the aggravating thing is that we can't install any optics ourselves; it has to be sent up to an armorer to install.

I've always got the feeling SIG went with their mounting pattern/sytem to make sure their future designed optic would be selected instead of making a more common pattern which would have invited more competition....