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Thread: The (ma)lingering question re: CCW instruction, with emphasis re: female students

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Everybody loves Tim Chandler.

    I wish he'd compile his longer posts into an ebook so I could say that I'd pay twenty bucks for it but then welch out if he actually did it.

    But seriously, please consider it. My list of p-f favorited/bookmark links has too many with your name on them and the list is long enough as it is.

  2. #22
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    Everybody loves Tim Chandler.
    You've never met any of my exes, I take it.

  3. #23
    A field trip to an entry level shootin' match? Doesn't matter what flavor, defensive pistol, pin shoot, wild west or whatever. Just something that may infect the susceptible.

  4. #24
    Member JMS's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    Everybody loves Tim Chandler.
    Myeh, he's ok.

    I guess.

    ( )

  5. #25
    This is from my own experience with my wife and my buddy’s wife.
    They both took the CCW 5 years ago and my wife just renewed hers.

    Have a 22LR available like people have said. Having them feel encouraged rather than discouraged is important. They both came back from the initial class excited and open to more.

    My wife doesn’t dry fire and only goes to the range a few times a year if that.

    But when we go, I have her shoot a G34 with weak gamer ammo and a softer recoil spring. It also has grip tape on the slide to help rack.

    She knows how to do it but also knows her limitations. Her carry gun is a 4” Model 66 revolver with 38 special because of the reasons the OP suggested. But they have to come to that conclusion themselves and being kind and supportive lets them get there sooner.

    This was a “carjacking” drill we set up for her. 10 yards to 8” rectangles or so.

  6. #26
    Member dogcaller's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
    Northern Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    Give us a follow-up! I'd really like to hear how things have been going with you and your students in the last couple months.
    It's been a while, but I now have some time to report. Thanks, all, for your feedback.

    I incorporated some of it into my last class, which was in late summer.

    I definitely understand the "less is more" feedback. That's kind of the crux of my dilemma. My past experiences and intuition indicate that most participants will view this course more as a hoop to jump through than the beginning of necessary training (which is what I advocate). As such, I think perhaps the most important thing I can do is help them to keep themselves safer by maintaining situational awareness and thereby avoiding conflicts. If I had to choose what type of lessons I would want my young-adult daughter or her group of friends to receive, it would definitely be that as opposed to gun handling.

    On the other hand, it is a CCW/CHL course and so it needs to include information about firearms safety and use, as well as a very cursory introduction to the use of lethal force (essentially I just explain the language that the County provides them on the matter, with a few what-ifs and examples). It also makes sense to share some basic lessons we've all learned about carrying a weapon. The trade-offs between OWB/IWB/off-body, etc. The firearms safety portion is all that is required by the state, so I definitely need to do that, and, as I said before, I don't feel comfortable "signing off" on anyone whom I have not seen safely operating a handgun. With introductions, background, discussion, Q&A and breaks, those four hours pass quickly, but not at an uncomfortable pace. In my past couple of classes I have taught how to safely clean a handgun and (for the sake of time) gave them the option of skipping the actual cleaning portion. In each case they wanted to learn how to clean their particular handguns, using the equipment I provided.

    In my last class, I incorporated the Correia Active Self Protection videos as well as John Murphy's pre-assault indicators video (with permission). In that sense, I added content to my presentation, but it was definitely value-added. Those are eye-opening, and sobering.

    For that class, I borrowed a friend's LCP .380 for some of the female shooters to try and also brought a couple of my .22 autos. I also sent a more detailed pre-class questionnaire and created a coupon of sorts for additional training. I had always offered additional training before, but it wasn't written down as to what exactly it would entail. More of a "contact me for more" type of thing.

    This class was the largest I have ever taught, with nine participants. It was an extended family group, comprising of the patriarch, who was pushing 80, his kids, in-laws, and adult grandchildren. Great folks.

    It is interesting because, after the class, six of the participants asked to do additional training. I'm sure that the fact that they are a family group and want to continue to train together has something to do with it. But it's also true that the class just felt really successful. It wasn't easy. I would say that two of the participants were reasonably safe and competent shooters, with good previous experience, if not training. The rest was a grab-bag of an Aussie (son-in-law) who was given a 2nd gen S&W TDA, a woman with arthritis who handled a 22/45 quite well, and an assortment of newbies with a variety of SFA autos. Oh yes, and one woman with a .380 and Crimson Trace grips, but which was not even close to being zeroed.

    I received really strong, positive feedback from several participants about the situational awareness instruction. Later, when I was speaking with the patriarch to set up additional training, he shared that the Aussie gentleman, his son-in-law, is usually a pretty taciturn and difficult to please type--but that he had said it was the best instruction he has ever received, in any field--and it turns out that he is a surgeon in Denver. One of the other ladies reached out after class by email with a question and compliments. Turns out she is a senior VP for HR & Training at Oracle. I say this not at all to brag--it's an honest report and I appreciate the advice I received here which contributed to the success of the class. The class did not seem appreciably different from my previous ones, though the inclusion of the pre-assault indicator and ASP videos was a positive addition. I also believe that having some pre-printed coupon options for future training was a good idea--it gave them some ideas to think about and a sense of scope and scale. We ended up agreeing on three additional 2-hour sessions for 5-6 people. I had suggested groups of 2-4 but they preferred the larger group.

    We established training goals for our range sessions and scheduled the first session. We ended up needing to cancel due to unhealthy amounts of smoke in the air from CO wildfires, then COVID got crazier and here we are.

    "During this entire time you are alternating your role between presenting authority, coach, and cheerleader. You present material with brevity and authority. You coach where it is necessary. And you make sure you celebrate success. When they get something right, no matter how small, you point that out and you make a big damn deal out of it. Especially in front of others. Coach to correct softly, but shout the successes from the rooftop. When you take the time to recognize success and the eyes of the class are on them for having done well at something, it changes the experience for them and for everyone else. They get to be recognized in front of a group of people for success at something they were nervous to approach in the first place. Everybody else gets to see that you're jazzed about their successes.

    Everybody comes away believing you are on their team.

    That is what will make them come back to other classes. I can't scare someone into taking more training, but I can make sure they taste success and get the impression that this is something they can do."

    I definitely agree with this. My profession is actually in education. Although you couldn't tell from my rambling run-on sentences, I'm an elementary school principal (but hey, it's winter break!).

    The crux of my original post was to express some frustration that reasonable people are not willing enough to pursue the reasonable training they need to be safe. I'm becoming stronger in the position that a significant portion of people who take my classes (or any others) really have no business carrying a weapon. Especially if they treat it as a talisman. I'm not for legislating against it--just kind of ranting.

    I appreciate the feedback and perspective you have shared and look forward to more discussion if anyone is still interested.

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