Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 42

Thread: Buffer question(s)

  1. #31
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Except the OP wasn't talking about 14-16" CAR rifles but 11.5-12.5 pistol/SBR setups with shorter dwell times. It'll certainly run with a CAR buffer but it may not be ideal.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    Whoever pissed in your Cheerios this morning swiped your manners too.

    FACT: Since the XM177, the CAR buffer was standard until the Colt 920. Over 30 years of Colt carbine models from the XM177 to the 723/733 never had an issue with a CAR buffer.

    FACT: The M4 Program introduced the H buffer and M4 feedramps to fix feed issues in full auto. Colt fixed the issues with either the feedramps or the H buffer, leaving a redundancy. The feed issues were all under full auto conditions, there was NOT an issue in semi-auto only with the M4 Carbine.

    FACT: M4A1 received the H2 buffer after issues due to full auto and the heavier barrel profile. Once again, there was NO issues in semi-auto with the M4A1.

    FACT: H3 buffers were designed for the Colt IAR. There were NEVER designed for a DI AR-15, only a meme piston AR.

    Now, last I checked, there ain't a COTS AR-15 with a happy switch. There is NO need for a heavy buffer on a semi-auto only AR15. There were not engineered because you have an under/over gassed AR or there was a problem with the CAR buffer.

    I don't think many would dispute these facts, but speaking of buffer weights alone without the relationship to gas port sizing is myopic. Colt controlled the entire gun and varied gas port sizing for each application. I believe once you leave the Colt world, you'll see a bunch of different port sizes across different brands, even for the same barrel length/gas system. If the gas port is on the bigger or smaller size for the application, buffer weight can be used to fine tune the system for best function and parts reliability.

    I've heard "for semi- as long as it runs, buffer weight doesn't matter." I don't entirely disagree, but too much gas/too little buffer is a) hard on trigger pins, and b) more recoil impulse than necessary. What's the harm in trying different buffer weights in that situation?
    Anything I post is my opinion alone as a private citizen.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by rd62 View Post
    Except the OP wasn't talking about 14-16" CAR rifles but 11.5-12.5 pistol/SBR setups with shorter dwell times. It'll certainly run with a CAR buffer but it may not be ideal.
    You mean like the XM177/GAU-5A and 733 Commando?

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DpdG View Post

    I've heard "for semi- as long as it runs, buffer weight doesn't matter." I don't entirely disagree, but too much gas/too little buffer is a) hard on trigger pins, and b) more recoil impulse than necessary. What's the harm in trying different buffer weights in that situation?
    There is no harm, but advising throwing in heavy buffers because "ONLY THE MOST ELITE COMPANIES EQUIP THEIR AR-15s WITH H BUFFERS" is mindless consumer thinking. My original point is that @Darth_Uno does not need to fuck with the buffer on a functioning rifle. The buffer is in spec and heavy buffers were never designed to smooth up the action, but to fix issues that only occur in select-fire..... with black follower USGI magazines and M855.

    I would also argue that severely overgassed carbines would benefit for a adjustable gas block or BRT gas tube helluva more than a buffer.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    There is no harm, but advising throwing in heavy buffers because "ONLY THE MOST ELITE COMPANIES EQUIP THEIR AR-15s WITH H BUFFERS" is mindless consumer thinking. My original point is that @Darth_Uno does not need to fuck with the buffer on a functioning rifle. The buffer is in spec and heavy buffers were never designed to smooth up the action, but to fix issues that only occur in select-fire..... with black follower USGI magazines and M855.

    I would also argue that severely overgassed carbines would benefit for a adjustable gas block or BRT gas tube helluva more than a buffer.
    You do realize that Colt, the company you keep bringing up, doesn't ship their rifles with carbine buffers, right? And they haven't for a long time. Are they wrong? What do you know that Colt doesn't?

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    I have never seen a problem that was directly related to the buffer. I will agree you can smooth up the recoil impulse with a heavier buffer, but I will retain that it is not needed for proper function.
    Define proper function. Will go bang every time and cycle? Certainly. But the system will be out of balance and it's timing off.

    There is a problematic issue in the AR world that can be viewed in this very forum. People get an AR and start changing shit before they even fire it because Brand Y is shit, you need Brand X widget to make a M4gery not fall apart in your hands.
    This is irrelevant to the discussion. No one in this thread is changing out parts before before shooting or even suggesting it. The suggestion is to change out a substandard part (carbine weight buffer) for the right part. I have personally shot an AR enough to verify a carbine weight buffer is substandard.

    Let alone people with functional AR-15s that read forums and buy into the marketing side instead of 60 years of government development and actually shooting their functional AR-15.
    H and H2 buffers are not marketing hype. The H (and later the H2 buffer) were developed because the carbine buffer was too light and bolt bounce was a problem, a problem that was revealed during full auto fire. The heavier buffers solved the bolt bounce problem by smoothing out the action. Note that buffers with floating weights were developed for the same reason. The rifle, H and H2 buffers are the result of 60 years of shooting and development by the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    BRO, WHY DO MANUFACTURERS FOLLOW TDP AND ECONOMY OF SCALE?
    I won't go into the legal reasons why many makers of ARs do not follow the TDP, but I will point out that the carbine weight buffer doesn't follow the TDP for the M4 or M4A1

    My argument is any properly-built AR-15 carbine can use a CAR buffer. The heavy buffers were designed for automatic fire issues and the only AR carbines that truly benefit from an H would be an upper without M4 feedramps.
    It's also true that any properly built AR carbine can use an over sized gas port. In fact, some very knowledgeable folks argue that an over gassed AR is preferable for more reliable extraction. But it does put the system out of balance and throws off the timing.

    The claim that the only ARs that can benefit from from an H buffer is an upper without M4 ramps ignores the fact that even with the proper size gas port, with carbine buffers extraction is more violent, placing greater strain on the extractor. It ignores the fact that recoil is sharper (not increased). Sharper recoil requires more work for the shooter and increases shooter fatigue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    You mean like the XM177/GAU-5A and 733 Commando?
    The XM177 series was popular in spite of its lack of refinement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder9 View Post
    There is no harm, but advising throwing in heavy buffers because "ONLY THE MOST ELITE COMPANIES EQUIP THEIR AR-15s WITH H BUFFERS" is mindless consumer thinking.
    No, it's based on experience shooting and experimenting with different uppers & lowers

    My original point is that @Darth_Uno does not need to fuck with the buffer on a functioning rifle. The buffer is in spec and heavy buffers were never designed to smooth up the action, but to fix issues that only occur in select-fire..... with black follower USGI magazines and M855.
    Carbine buffers are not within spec. They are obsolete and the carbines delivered to the military do not use them. M4s & M4A1s are delivered with H2 buffers.

    The H and H2 buffers were indeed developed to smooth the the function of short ARs. With the carbine weight buffers, they discovered that bolt bounce caused malfunctions during autofire. Buffers needed heavier floating weights to smooth out function and eliminate bolt bounce. The results was a better weapon in both semiauto and full auto fire.

    I would also argue that severely overgassed carbines would benefit for a adjustable gas block or BRT gas tube helluva more than a buffer.
    You almost got this right. Proper gas drive is very important. Over gassing cannot be fixed with a heavier buffer. It must be fixed by controlling the flow, ideally by the right diameter gas port, but an adjustable gas block or one of Clints EZ tune gas tubes are just as effective.

    It's accepted that a 20 inch AR with its rifle length gas system and rifle buffer is well balanced and sets the standard for reliability and durability. As I recall, military testing has proven this out. ARs with shorter gas systems have a more violent operating cycling due largely to the increased gas pressure used to drive it. This has been exacerbated by using a lighter buffer and shorter spring to achieve the shortest weapon possible. A carbine buffer weighs about 3.0 ozs. A rifle buffer weighs about 5.2 ozs and gives smoother function regardless of barrel & gas system length than a carbine weight buffer. Semiauto ARs certainly do benefit from using H/H2/A5H2/rifle buffers over carbine buffers.
    Last edited by MistWolf; 07-19-2020 at 11:34 AM.
    We wish to thank the United Network Command for Law and Enforcement, without whose assistance this program would not have been possible.

  7. #37
    Excellent post Mr. Wolf. That should be tacked somewhere.

    I'm running H2 in everything now, from 18" to my shorty 11.5". I've found it's the sweet spot.

    My shorty ran just fine with carbine, but runs smoother, and is less jumpy with H2.

  8. #38
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    N. Alabama
    I run H2 in my Elmore 14.5" and H3 in my Elmore 10.3". Both, per his direction.

  9. #39
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Houston

    Buffer/Spring for 300BO SBR

    Hijacking this thread for a related question.

    Where should I start with the spring/buffer combo on a 7" 300BO? I put in the standard Sprinco Blue/H2 to start with, but it won't cycle subs. I played with the gas block some at the range, but before going crazy with that I figured I should make sure I'm starting from the right place. Gun is currently unsuppressed but eventually it will be suppressed full time.

    I also have on hand buffers from carbine to H2 and a standard carbine spring or Sprinco Hot White.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by RancidSumo View Post
    Hijacking this thread for a related question.

    Where should I start with the spring/buffer combo on a 7" 300BO? I put in the standard Sprinco Blue/H2 to start with, but it won't cycle subs. I played with the gas block some at the range, but before going crazy with that I figured I should make sure I'm starting from the right place. Gun is currently unsuppressed but eventually it will be suppressed full time.

    I also have on hand buffers from carbine to H2 and a standard carbine spring or Sprinco Hot White.
    Your AR is under-gassed. You ain't gonna fix under-gassing with buffers or springs. Either add a suppressor (which increases back pressure by increasing blow down time) or open up the gas port in the barrel.
    We wish to thank the United Network Command for Law and Enforcement, without whose assistance this program would not have been possible.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •