Great post. The bolded part reflects the emphasis Ken Hackathorn put on this subject back in Dec.Originally Posted by phil_in_cs
Great post. The bolded part reflects the emphasis Ken Hackathorn put on this subject back in Dec.
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
You have hit on the conundrum of all of this WML vs handheld light vs which TTP to use. The cold hard truth is that all of this is a very obvious compromise of what to do and when to do it and to whom in situations that are clearly dangerous and in which the initial advantage often lies with the bad guy side. Whether we want to admit it or not, we all would love a set of answers that will ensure success for us and doom for the bad guy side. Unfortunately, there aren't any of those answers. The other ugly truth is that there are lots of muzzles being oriented on folks when there shouldn't be in all of those situations. Adding to that, the WML, improperly used, really aggravates the problem. We now have some clearcut cases of that and the dead suspects to prove it, and they weren't shot justifiably. There are even more uses observed in field encounters of stupid WML use, especially by the cops, who have used them for DL/ID lights, traffic direction lights and navigational aids. This sort of assclown behavior drives professional users and trainers nuts and it hurts development of the craft for all.
With proper selection of handheld lights and WMLs (another set of problems entirely) AND proper training in the use of that equipment, followed by solid field use validation of various TTPs, we start to get where we need to be on things. The problem is, most of what folks do in this realm is nowhere close to the level of knowledge and competence that is truly required to call it any kind of competence. It is further complicated by various "practicioners" having successes (or what they believe is a success) in the field using poor technique, poor tactics and poor equipment and getting lucky and thinking they have arrived, knowledge and skill wise.
What most don't want to hear is the truth and that is we have to have both handheld lights and WMLs and we have to have lots of training and practice in their use. We have to work hard enough and long enough to find out what works for our particular ergonomic requirements and for our operational demands. Most of us don't have the facilities available to do that and that's damn near criminal for lots of organizations. Most of us can't or won't spend the time for various reasons and most of us would rather go shoot drills or stages in the daylight and hope this is never an issue we will have to deal with.
Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
^^^THIS^^^ is exactly why when our policy was rewritten I was adamant that we not use WML's. I have seen some crazy crap over the years and I know that we have to figure for the lowest denominator. The only one's at our agency that have WML's are the TAC team guys...about 8 guys. I have suggested their use for K-9 for the obvious reasons. Even then, they should be properly trained by a qualified instructor.
Even at home I do not use WML's. With 4 kids I'd hate to sweep/aim at one of them in the middle of the night after being startled from sleep.
KeeFus,
You fell into the standard LE/Govt/Mil bureaucratic trap of depriving the very folks who need a WML more than your SWAT dudes (chicks?). How many low light encounters do your patrol guys manage vs the number SWAT does? If you knew the truth that ratio will be dozens or hundreds of times the number that SWAT has. Take a leadership position instead of a management one. TRAIN and equip all your competent cops, which will be most of them. If you have an LCD on your hands, fix him/her or get rid of them. Depriving many for the inadequacies of a couple is wrong, but it is an easy move from a desk. My stance has always been to train the regular troops to a high standard, since they are the ones that are going to manage most of your potential deadly encounters first and usually alone. Why wouldn't you prepare them well for that?
And, you can use a WML properly on your house guns and never sweep anybody, but that's for another time.
Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
I agree with Wayne 100%. If your people cannot be trusted to follow safety rules with a WML, they cannot be trusted to follow safety rules with just the "W" by itself.
I've seen cops do incredibly stupid/dangerous things with WMLs in training, especially FoF training. That doesn't mean they're better off without a WML.
When I step out of my car at night I have five lights on me. I have a rechargeable Maglite ( which can double as an impact weapon), a Pelican 7060, a Stremlight Polytac 90, a Surefire X300 WML, and a small AAA pen light in a vest pocket. The Maglite is kept in the door handle but the others are in pouches or on my belt. Five sounds like a lot but after I drained three lights on a three-four hour long area search I like having extras. The penlight is surprisingly bright in a dark backyard but it's mostly used to read stuff in low light.
The light I use at any given time is dependent on what I'm doing. On a traffic stop or subject stop I use the Maglite. I grab it with my left hand as I step out. It's usually above my left shoulder in a neck index on approach. I use neck index or Harries for the big Maglite.
If I'm searching a building I'll have the pistol with the WML in my primary hand. If I need to illuminate something I dont want to cover with my handgun I'll use the Pelican. I like turning on lights as I come to them on searches inside especially long hallways and big rooms. With the Pelican if needed I use the Chapman or Harries.
On searches with my dog outside my left wrist has the leash handle around it with itvrunning across the palm of my support hand. I've found I can use the Pelican and the Streamlight in my support hand along with the leash but it's awkward at times. Sometimes the light is in my strong hand. A lot of the time I'm dependent on the cover Officers searching with me for lethal cover.
If needed I can use the WML to clear around deep corners as I come to them. Usually the dog can't go around corners out of your sight before you clear them. For shooting with the dog I'm dependent on the WML and more than likely it'll be SHO until I can drop the leash (if I can).
When I'm searching with my dog outside I try to use lights as little as possible. When your eyes get adjusted to ambient light especially moonlit nights you can see a lot without them. You get used to moving through the darkness. Plus your dog's eyes are much better suited to lowlight along with his main talent of using his nose.
I usually search with one or two cover Officers. Between me, the dog and them we are making noise as we search. I don't like light pinpointing exactly where the noise is coming from. Flashlights behind me illuminate me and the dog. Plus dogs like to cheat and they quickly learn where we point lights the bad guy is often found. So they use their eyes and not their nose.
We have quarterly low light shoot training where we review and use all of the flashlight techniques, shoot with night sights only, and shooting with a squad cars LED lightbar flashing red/blue strobes.
Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.
That's just it. If they would train us instead of just give them out an hope for the best then I would like to think it would be a non-issue. But you know how crap just kinda happens and when the grab-assing starts is when it all goes to pot. That's why I seek out the training for myself. No chicks on SWAT. But the SWAT guys are not a 'full-time' unit...they're det's, narc guys, and patrol etc. They are getting the WML training. As far as everyone else, or even the squared away folks...with the current staf/admin, it just aint gonna happen.
As far a liability is concerned...we have a new person that was failed by 2 FTO's...but she's still there. Now you can see the mountain of BS that we are dealing with. If it aint about CALEA it gets shelved. That's the sad truth.
Sounds like we can tell each other the same stories about our respective PDs! I'm glad to be retired from mine. Miss the job badly, don't miss the BS a bit!
Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
Last week I bought back my military time. 9 years and I'm out.
I work on one of the best shifts I have ever worked on. I can honestly say that I trust each person and would trust them with a WML. Others...not so much. Our policy, which I had a hand in, states that "Members of the tactical team may use weapon mounted lights with holsters during tactical operations only after completing training for this purpose". The admin didnt even want that! Sometimes its like pulling teeth but, after watching them for almost 20 years do what they do, I've learned to take baby steps when it comes to trying to change things when you are dealing with folks who mainly write policy. We will have them eventually, but it may take a regime change.
ETA: Thats a direct quote form our policy. I had it written that anyone who had completed the proper training could use WML. You can see how it got changed. I'm not totally against WML's. Im against giving them to re-re's that can't get out of their own way. If they would train everyone then I would be fine, especially with the shift that i'm on. I think that the liability associated with it is what scares me the most. Our low light instructor told us about folks who were grab-assing with WML's and the outcomes. I just dont want it to happen when I'm around. I freely admit that I have not had 'formal' training on WML's. The low light class I took a few weeks ago was geared toward hand held flashlights however there were 3 or 4 with them.
Last edited by KeeFus; 06-04-2012 at 04:43 PM.
I spent last night trying all these techniques out and here is my assessment. First, someone here said that one of the important tactics when using a flashlight is the ability to turn it ON and OFF easily when needed. Since BG's shoot at the flashlight, that makes sense to me. And, I see why the FBI chose that method even if not as good from a targeting perspective.
Weapons Mounted Lights: They would be great for paper targets if IDPA allowed them, but they don't. And, they are more cumbersome to use and difficult to get holsters, and difficult to carry, especially IWB. And, it allows BGs to shoot right at the flashlight/handgun so higher risk. No to WML.
Chapman and Rogers suffer from the same problem. Too difficult to manage the flashlight ON/OFF and still get a good grip and not interfere with Strong Hand operation of the weapon. Plus, BG's will shoot at the light. Better to shoot SHO.
Harries and REverse Harries just put more strain on my arms to maintain the hold/stance. Both require more movement of the weak arm and if you need to move back and forth, takes time. I didn't like either of these, and they don't seem to help SHO shooting.
Neck Index and Temple Index are great for seeing my sights and the target and are more comfortable to hold and easy to operate the ON/OFF button when needed. They are about equal but I like the temple index a bit more because the light beam gets a better angle. Only bad thing is that BG;s shoot the light, which is near my head. But I can turn ON/OFF easily and move more easily. I like this the best.
FBI has the advantage of moving the BG's shots towards the light away from me. However, it doesn't work well in close quarters, and is more difficult to get consistent targeting and sight illumnination.
My decision is to practice both Temple Index and FBI techniques until I can smoothly transition between both. That way if shots were fired, I will be ready to use FBI, but default to the Temple Index.
Also, just had another thought: Have a second flashlight with a wide angle reflector that will allow me to set that flashlight down and illuminate a room and carry the tactical flashlight with me for targeting.
That is my own personal assessment and not suggesting to anyone this is the best answer. I am not an expert nor do I claim to be one. Individual results may vary. Use of these techniques is at your own risk, blah blah blah. No offense intended and none taken, etc.
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