Flashlight Techniques

[GJM]

GJM--I am unaware of your background...have you ever used a hand held light in a LE capacity?..

I have not, is it a prerequisite to participate in this discussion?

[GJM]

Nyeti, as I said, you are entitled to your opinions and preferences, and I would never say they are wrong for you. I do disagree that the Rogers technique sucks, and find it works best for me.

You and I have had friendly discussions over time on various topics, both on and off forums. We agree on a lot more than we disagree on. I believe that you are convinced the Weaver is the best technique, and nothing is going to change your mind. With that knowledge, I watched you start on the pistol history thread with the concept that the Weaver is the best fighting stance, then migrate to where we are, by stating that the modern ISO is a poor stance for use with a light. If you are a Weaver shooter, almost every solution involves the Weaver. Probably vice versa for a Modern Iso shooter.

Since I infrequently carry a handgun with a WML, always carry a light, shoot with the modern ISO, and often have a .44 magnum with hard cast ammo, or a 10 with heavy loads, I have needed to find a flashlight technique that works for me in shooting accurately BUT also controlling recoil. The Rogers technique does, and after over a dozen courses with night training (Gunsite, TR, Randy Cain, Pat Rogers, Louie A, Rogers School) I think I have been exposed to them all.

[orionz06]

Southnarc's AMIS class is one hell of a way to see how your preferred light technique stacks up. Never once have I seen so many people with a bajillion hours under so many awesome guru's begin to question why they ever did what they did. Byron can explain it far better than I can so I won't butcher it here.

[TGS]

Great comments so far, guys.

The only training I've had on flashlights was with John Murphy's ACSD course, where we did a few hours of night fire. We got to try out a few different techniques and then run some drills with them. With little experience in light applications, I find the neck index to be extraordinarily easier. Obviously, I haven't done much training with it, and have never used them on the job or in any real-life application whatsoever. So, awesome comments. Nyeti, you have some really good insights that I'm enjoying. I'd really like to hear from some of the other BTDT guys, such as SouthNarc and Rich Verdi (if he still posts here).

As someone who hasn't trained for years on flashlight techniques, I get somewhat confused with the different names at times. So, here's some pictures I looked up that can serve as a quick-reference in this thread for the most popular techniques. I am in no way trying to steal the thunder of the source; credit is due to the Big Stick Combat Blog:

Chapman Technique


Rogers Technique


Neck Index


Harries Technique


FBI Technique

[ToddG]

With was definitely NOT the case in my class.

Ditto. I struggled with it for years. I still remember the day I got my first 6Z because it was supposed to "do the Rogers" so much more easily than the 6P I'd been carrying for years. But -- in no small part because I've got short fingers -- holding the light Rogers style basically prevents me from wrapping any meaningful amount of grip around the pistol frame. So I end up with no improvement to recoil control.

I'm a "temple index" guy, myself. It's not perfect and it's not universally applicable, but nine times out of ten that's how I'll be holding a flashlight when I have a gun in my hand, and I simply do my shooting SHO.

[Dagga Boy]

I actually really hate the term Weaver, but it seems that "Weaverish" is a way to describe it in print. I shoot from my F.I. position and how I naturally position my body to fight. Most pistol fights are not much different than a fist fight. I have a simple rule in which I do not like both arms locked in front of me. Good way to shoot pistols, and a poor way to fight. Pat Rogers and I are pretty close on stance and deployment. I do not blade as much as many of the older Gunsite guys. Another issue is I tend to remain fairly fluid in my ability to move the gun. I have had several take away attempts done on me......learning occured and I realized that the ability to get a gun out of a fight is as important as getting it into a fight. SouthNarc and I share a lot of the same thoughts, yet we use a little different technique due mainly to some size and training differences, but we are usually looking to solve the same problems.

I have also changed, evolved, de-evolved over the years on many issues with experience. I shot really good in hard ISO before I was a cop and in the academy. I used the Ayoob light technique..........for exactly two days on the job and found out that what worked on the range was not compatible with what I was seeing in my "new" world....graveyard weekend nights in a busy SoCal city. My job required a TON of flashlight work, so I lean heavy on it, and have seen and deployed lights in some pretty unique situations.

Fast forward to working high end executive/VIP stuff. My training was more geared towards "shooting" than prisoner taking and searching because I was in a position where I was not going to be deploying a pistol unless I was going to be shooting.

Now, retired, my needs are again different. I still work off my L/E foundation because that is what the house is built on.

For a lone person making a decision on what to do for technique, you have to be pretty clear. The problem is most are working off what they "think" might happen. You become very instructor dependent. GJM and I do just fine exchanging ideas. We differ on Rogers. I look at it as a good mechanical shooting program, which is not really my thing. Neat stuff, hope to go someday, but I have a bunch of people ahead that I want to train with. I am blessed and cursed that I have worked in a literally lab that is GREAT for a dedicated student of gunfighting. I am also disabled because of it. I have tried just about everything out there. I fall back to what I have seen consistently work for dealing with evil people. I also know that there are lots of things that work for dealing with bad people. I just apply technique to my world, and urban U.S. bad people. Dealing with bears and wilderness........somebody else's world. Stinky bad guys in far away lands...somebody elses world.

On low light stuff, I am pretty confident that what I do works, and not by one lucky encounter. Hopefully, if others have to use these techniques, they will work for you. I am just in a position of not having to deal with "hopefully's", and can work off of experience.

[Wayne Dobbs]

GJM,

While going to lots of schools is a generally good thing, there's nothing that matches doing the deed in the dark for real in an operational, not a training, setting. You lack that frame of reference and that doesn't assist your position. Like Nyeti, I worked many years of nights in patrol ops, plain clothes deployment ops and street narcotics enforcement. You very quickly learn that you don't know as much as you think you do and that while training is desirable and even required (or should be), it's NOT the same thing as street ops and the discoveries and refinements that take place in that arena if you are paying attention.

One thing that is still getting overlooked is that 99.8% of the time, you are simply seaching, looking, scanning and managing unknown contacts in an often dynamic, diminished light setting. You very rarely shoot at anybody and if you're doing things well, you don't often put a muzzle on folks although you may draw to some kind of ready position. Most of the firearms training schools out there teach that lonely 0.02% and pay lip service to what actually happens the overwhelming majority of the time. That's because when we go to school we want to shoot and the folks out there presenting these classes want to make money by presenting lots of shooting. There are some few trainers out there doing low light training and good on them, because it's needed, but most don't. The really scary thing about that is that most of the shooting encounters in LE and private citizen shooting are in those low light settings for which few have adequately and realistically trained, since their training experiences have been in broad daylight on a flat range at known distances with stationary targets.

While I know that having an opportunity to "sack up, strap up and live in our world" is highly unlikely, you need to know that going to lots of schools makes you the rough equivalent of a college professor who has never lived in the world for which he is educating his students. He may be academically brilliant, but he's not operationally capable. Until you've had extensive experiences with managing lights, weapons, radios, assisting officers, uninvolved personnel, unknown personnel and suspects at the same time, you don't know yet what you don't know.

[TGS]

Fast forward to working high end executive/VIP stuff. My training was more geared towards "shooting" than prisoner taking and searching because I was in a position where I was not going to be deploying a pistol unless I was going to be shooting.

What light technique did you use for this context?

[cclaxton]

I personally like the FBI approach, although I just shot a IDPA match where I used the technique and had marginal results. The scenario was that you are in a dimly lit high class restaurant with candle lighting only. You are having dinner with your significant other when 6 guys come in for a mob hit about 21 feet away from your table. Shots must be fired from the table. There are, of course, other non-threats. I found it difficult to get the light exactly where I wanted it so I can see my sights and the target, but once I did I shot faster and more accurately. I also like the idea that you can distract a gunman by holding the light away from your body.

Good news: all targets had good hits...bad news is that I was down 30....hard to see the holes even with a good flashlight.

I still like the FBI method, but I can see I need to do more dryfire practice to get it repeatable.

CC

[Dagga Boy]

I (and the guys on my teams) used lights A LOT. Many of our guys were limited to lights and folders as there only weapons. My light stuff was exactly the same-I hold it like a club, and go from there. That club like hold can be used to strike, illuminate, strobe and move, and freely flows into Harries (note:in the above picture, it is not set deep enough), Reverse Harries, or neck index. I can also paint and flash from the same grip. I am never without a E2DL at minimum.

What changed is that working in daylight and practicing, I was a little more locked in and geared towards a solid draw and shooting speed than on searching technique and deploying from a ready position.