Flashlight Techniques

[Chuck Haggard]

That is sort of my point on this. When really "working" low light problems, that light is moving a lot and there is a lot of variables in where it needs to be in some very short time frames. It is why I am asking about those who are using a syringe on the gun and then I am trying to wrap my head around what people using the the syringe are doing for support side barricades and when the light needs to be separate from the pistol. With the system I teach you can go from the light on either side of the gun to the neck index to Modified FBI to using it as an impact tool and use it from retention with easy flow and you never have to change where the light is in your hand, and you do not need a "special" light.

^This^

[NETim]

That is sort of my point on this. When really "working" low light problems, that light is moving a lot and there is a lot of variables in where it needs to be in some very short time frames. It is why I am asking about those who are using a syringe on the gun and then I am trying to wrap my head around what people using the the syringe are doing for support side barricades and when the light needs to be separate from the pistol. With the system I teach you can go from the light on either side of the gun to the neck index to Modified FBI to using it as an impact tool and use it from retention with easy flow and you never have to change where the light is in your hand, and you do not need a "special" light.

Not an expert on this subject by any means, but I have been running Harries for my strongside approaches and the "syringe" for weakside. I have something of an advantage as my natural strong hand is running the light and naturally has more dexterity. I don't have much trouble swapping the light's position in my paw. I like to run the "syringe" version as I can wrap a coupla fingers around the grip and gain a little more control. Then too, I believe the "O" ring system I have on my lights maintains the light in a more workable position to perform these light-fingered gymnastics.

More complex I know, but it's been working for me in my experience limited solely to the training/practice environment. (Not that I intend to do any house clearing anyway. I want none of that. Let 'em come to me if it has to be.)

[LSP552]

I'm not sure how that's different from a civilian who finds himself needing to PID then shoot. Which is why I think you're seeing more and more "CCW" type shooters -- and trainers -- leaning toward those same search-oriented techniques and fewer are doing the "shoot a little faster" stuff these days. I've got pretty short fingers so the Rogers technique just never really worked for me at all. But I do practice SHO shooting quite a bit so I tend to be as good or better shooting from a neck index as I am shooting from some compromised 2-hand-with-light grip on the gun.

Todd,

I'd agree that they are similar. The biggest difference will probably be in duration of light use, rapid need and a more varied environment. The law enforcement usage could last a long time ranging from traffic stops/field interviews/checking a building with open door/actively chasing and hunting. For the most part, the LE light usage is not based on surprise. The CCW use is probably much more compressed with the immediate need to ID a potential threat and rapidly work through the decision making process.

I'd go so far as say that the ability to rapidly transition from lighting/IDing the threat to planting a light in someone's forehead is even more important for non-LE because they probably don't have access to a baton, OC, lightening, other less-lethal alternatives, or 10 friends. Its also probably far more likely to be a surprise light up and assess than the on the LE side.

Ken

[ToddG]

The biggest difference will probably be in duration of light use,

Totally agree.

rapid need

Whether you come across the guy on the job or I do in the alley, rapidity of response isn't likely to be different IMHO.

and a more varied environment.

While my gut wants to scream "no" I think that's a totally valid comment from a real world perspective. There are all sorts of places you have to go that I wouldn't under just about any circumstances. I know when we were doing the lowlight segment of AMIS in the Culpeper Rape Dungeon there were many times I thought to myself that I never had been and never would be in a place like that. And you can't prove otherwise.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think the use of light by LE vastly outweighs the amount of what is actually needed in a CCW situation. One is a daily occurrence, the other is, in my observation, so rare that I'm not sure why people would even worry about it.

Seriously. I'll note that none of Tom's student shootings involving anything close to the good guy needing to light up a target for PID. This is because it's really hard to rob people when you can't see them. Cops go looking for bad guys who like to run and hide in dark holes, other people not so much.

I don't worry about light use while off duty nearly as much as I do for on duty work, and for good reasons.

[ToddG]

I don't worry about light use while off duty nearly as much as I do for on duty work, and for good reasons.

One of the smartest things in this thread so far, though... (and one reason why I get snotty when folks say they don't need night sights because they'll have white light).

[Chuck Haggard]

Seriously, I have gone into basements to look for murder suspects while I am at work. Why would anyone do such a thing if they didn't have to?


Bad guy robbing me in a parking lot? Pretty sure it's light enough for me to see I be gettin robbed, and I should have an idea who the bad guy is right about then.

[LSP552]

Whether you come across the guy on the job or I do in the alley, rapidity of response isn't likely to be different IMHO.

The biggest difference is if I'm in the alley I'm probably looking for someone so my light is in my hand and working. I'd agree there are exceptions to this and anyone who is surprised has the same immediate need.

While my gut wants to scream "no" I think that's a totally valid comment from a real world perspective. There are all sorts of places you have to go that I wouldn't under just about any circumstances. I know when we were doing the lowlight segment of AMIS in the Culpeper Rape Dungeon there were many times I thought to myself that I never had been and never would be in a place like that. And you can't prove otherwise.

This is one area that I worry about in general. It's pretty easy to get technical training in a lot of things, which is all good! The problem is sometimes there isn't a discussion on when should you do it along with how to do it. Luck will always be a factor in any fight. The goal of training is to reduce the luck factor to 5% instead of 95%. One example is a former co-worker shot in the chest chasing a robber on foot. The bad guy at full run throws a shot over the shoulder and catches the trooper in the chest (survived). That's the 5% you can't ever control for. Putting yourself in a position you don't have to be in, regardless of how well you shoot, your mindset, training, etc is always a roll of the dice.

Of course, I'm retired now and admit there are many times when I don't carry a light at all.

Ken

[ToddG]

If I'm in a dark area I almost always have my flashlight in my hand. It's a benefit of carrying the little light to begin with and has been discussed upthread, there are times when just a light -- immediately -- can solve problems that you'd never want to use a gun for.

[Mr_White]

I'll note that none of Tom's student shootings involving anything close to the good guy needing to light up a target for PID. This is because it's really hard to rob people when you can't see them.

Thanks for bringing that up. That's a pretty persuasive citation to me.