Double Stacks and raccoon-sized hands

[momano]

Dear Clusterfrack, you obviously know more than me, and are a better shot than me. I'm simply speaking as a 65 year old arthritic retiree that comes here for knowledge. I shoot a lot more than most- yet I come have to the conclusion that I will never train out of shooting low and left with glocks. I hope to be able to roll out of bed in the middle of the night and hit center mass of a "bad hombre" in my home (longest sight plane is 30 feet). I also have a Colt M4 with a Meprolight. Every thing you say is absolutely wise; I'm simply realistic. If you were here in my home town I'd be delighted if you'd coach me. The OP has to figure out what will work for him at this place in his life. I'm, as I say, trying to be realistic and prepared as possible. You should know that I read everything you say and respect your wisdom!

[Clusterfrack]

@momano, here's a link to a cheap laser boresight ($18) that can help you get to the bottom of the "low, left". Put this in your gun and dryfire. If the laser moves low/left every time you press the trigger, then you've got your answer. And the good news is you can work on your grip and trigger press to fix it. If it doesn't move, the low/left is something else--maybe pushing the gun down. That takes live fire to fix, and probably needs another thread.

https://smile.amazon.com/MidTen-Sigh...dp/B07GGWJSJ6/

[BillSWPA]

I used to shoot Glocks low and to the left, but learning how to improve my grip and trigger squeeze eliminated that issue.


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[momano]

I would simply like to posit to Crews- that, perhaps his solution is to stay with double stack Glocks and drift the sight. I ended up with a g45- the g17 grip. My hands-- because of size, and because of arthritis, -- don't work easily with double stack Glocks, and "a" solution for him would be to stay with Glocks and drift the sight. It has worked for me to my satisfaction. That certainly would not be best practice for everyone. I personally chose that solution as opposed to changing platforms and/or training, aids, etc etc. YMMV etc etc Blessings to all!

[BillSWPA]

Grip pointers from Julie Golob. Note the position of the gun in her hand when viewed from the rear (not mentioned in the video). If her arm was straight for one-hand shooting rather than angled for an isosceles hold, the barrel and forearm bone would line up. Note the other pointers she provides:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33HD9NxwHp0

Here is another video by Julie Golob. Like the above video, her semiauto grip shows the barrel-bone alignment I prefer. However, her revolver grip is shifted away from this alignment to get more trigger finger into the trigger. So, this barrel-bone alignment is helpful in some, but not all situations (or all hand sizes and shapes). Note her other pointers as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0p0axUI3zc

Incorporating the methods shown on these videos into my own shooting enabled me to shoot Glocks consistently, without shooting low and left. They also improved my DA revolver shooting.

[RevolverRob]

Simple solution. Stop trying to make your fingers do something they can do (interface perfectly perpendicular to the trigger).

Long-short 90-degrees at the break is dumb. I don’t know who came up with it, but it absolutely ignores the fact that fingers don’t move move like that. Yes you want to put minimal sideways pressure on the trigger, when pressing it, but perfectly flat and flat, while great in theory doesn’t work in practice.

Below are three pictures of a 1911 in my hand, which is a L-XL sized palm with M-length fingers. Typically, considered an excellent pistol for those with small’ish hands. Look at how straight the gun is (C-grip, with almost equal pressure on the front and rear straps). Notice how parallel my index finger is to the frame. I was taught fairly early on, where the tip of your index finger goes is what you point at (that’s a duh moment but think about it). The way my finger interacts with the gun, I know precisely where the muzzle is.

In pic 2: I have pressed the trigger all the way through the break like I normally do. My index finger is no where near 90-degrees. It’s at best 75-degrees. Doesn’t matter trigger breaks cleanly.

In pic 3, I have tried to press to a 90-Degree second joint. I’ve had to turn the gun way around in a virtually unusable grip to do this. I’ve done it for the point of exaggerating how much focusing on this aspect compromises everything else.

Turn your gun in your hand to set in a proper C-Grip and press the trigger as cleanly to the rear as possible. Whatever angle your trigger finger is at when you finish the press is the angle it’s at. As long as you have sufficient leverage to manipulate the trigger, you’re good to go. In both grip pictures you have a compromised grip with the gun can’t too far outboard, turn it so the tang sits deep in your hand and get a clean press. Honestly, if you clean up the grip problem, you’ll probably find you have no problem with almost any gun. I have at best M-length fingers and I can shoot an STI...which is one of the biggest grips out there...only the G21 is bigger in my experience.

[JAD]

I used to shoot Glocks low and to the left, but learning how to improve my grip and trigger squeeze eliminated that issue.


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Learning how to improve my grip masked that issue. It’s still there SHO.

[MattyD380]

I'll say this... I do perceive a relationship between the "amount of finger" I can get on the trigger and how well I shoot. It's not an absolute; other factors certainly come into play... like, how much lateral pressure am I getting from my weak hand... how heavy/long is the trigger, etc. But it's generally true. And I think it's especially true with double action. With my Kahr, I literally can get close to 90-degrees at the break--it shoots great for me. Other DA(O)s can be more of a challenge. If you're small-pawed, try a Kahr. It was made for our kind. I didn't mention it before because Kahrs are single stacks.

Case and point...

I've been messing with a DAK P239 lately (partly because I now have more .357 Sig on hand than 9mm). I shoot it okay, but I sometimes have trouble keeping the gun (and sights) stable at the break. So, this thread gave me an idea: I hiked the trigger back part-way and placed my finger on it at the distal joint--which is beyond my nominal reach. Re-gripped and pulled through the break... sights didn't budge. Again. Same deal. The "vector" of my pull definitely feels more straight and more controlled with more finger.

Suffice to say, I'm looking for a short-reach P239 trigger now. Which is odd, because, I never really had an issue with the DA on my DA/SA P239. Pretty sure there's more overtravel with the DAK... and the hammer just seems to fall harder. Not sure it actually does, but that's how it feels. Pulling from the joint makes a big difference in controlling the requisite "bounce."

Anyway...

At the end of the day, I do think that more finger gives you more leverage, which gives you more trigger control, which helps with accuracy. But I think it also depends on the gun/type of trigger you're pulling.

[RevolverRob]

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At the end of the day, I do think that more finger gives you more leverage, which gives you more trigger control, which helps with accuracy. But I think it also depends on the gun/type of trigger you're pulling.

Yes and no.

You should use as much finger as it takes to reliably break the trigger cleanly and no more.

Less and you’ll end up with less mechanical advantage to work the trigger and thus more sight/gun bobble. This is why flat triggers clean up trigger pulls without doing anything to the actual mechanics, they give higher leverage for the same amount of finger, by allowing the user to press at the maximum end of the lever (as opposed to the middle, like a curved trigger). Generally what happens is - someone no longer needs as much finger as they were using and now can shift back to a more natural grip with better control of the weapon using their other fingers and palm, instead of having the gun twisted sideways in their hand.

There is zero reason to compromise your grip for a 90-degree second joint press with a pistol, just because that’s what someone said was ideal. I can’t find the origin of this piece of advice, but I see it most commonly touted in rifle shooting, where triggers are much lighter and shorter and grips can be quite different. Regardless, this particular piece of advice ignores a lot of variables to try to get fingers to do something they aren’t good at. Fingers coil in an eccentric fashion, they do not pivot or hinge. In fact if someone was really smart, they’d make a “trigger” that actually rotated around an axle that was perpendicular to the muzzle. It starts out flat and parallel to your trigger finger and then curls around nearly 180-degrees as it breaks.

In the case you describe, it’s a combo of a long (back to front) grip and a long trigger pull where you’re stretched to your limit given your finger length. A short reach trigger would almost certainly help. But you can try wedging a piece of foam between your palm and the backstrap and I bet you get more than enough finger to reliably break the trigger.

I do agree that grip size of the gun and hand can make a difference. I want to make it clear, I do not think there is a universal fit or everyone can shoot everything. But there is a reality too, that a good C-style grip, placing the barrel close to in line with the forearm, offers the best recoil control and greatest stability. And this 90-degree break thing is really irrelevant as long as you can reliably break the trigger, regardless of angle.

[Chuck Whitlock]

If you like the Glock, a grip reduction will work as it does with my short fingers. I have examples from Robar, Cold Bore Customs, and Boresight Solutions. All have improved my ability to get a proper trigger press, but Robar sadly is no more. A Cold Bore Customs G17 is in my Sparks VM-2 right now.

I'll chime in.

In boot camp at MCRD San Diego in 1987, I was issued leather gloves in size 6C. And possessed and used them for a couple of decades post enlistment.

My main issue with the above advice is that I kinda balk at spending ~$600 on grip work for a ~$400 gun to make it fit me. YMMV.

I used Gen 3 Glock 23's (and 22's and 27's) from 1999-2014 professionally, and was a Glock armorer for about 9 years. And I ran them relatively well, for a cop/instructor.

Late in my career, I became enamored of the NY1 / "-" connector combo, due in no large part to DB's "Street trigger" thread here. I subsequently tried to use a Grip Force Adapter (GFA)....and found that the trigger was completely unreachable for me. This was a "lightbulb" moment for me, In that I began to understand that the Gen 3 Glock grip was on the upper limit of compatibility for my hand size. In comparison, the SP101 and Kahr K9 grip and trigger reach are a perfect fit for me.

So subsequent to the Glock (again with a large tip-of-the-hat to the "Street Trigger" thread), I adopted the Sig P250C w/small grip frame....which, naturally, was promptly discontinued by Sig once the P320 was adopted by the .mil....story of my life.

The P250C continues to ride in my duty holster. But, subsequent to acquiring a BHP and a Ruger Night Watchman Commander, I am considering a new duty gun...with a short trigger and thumb safety. While a Sig P365/365XL w/TS would do yeoman duty as a CCW piece, duty holsters are about non-existent. The low $$$ answer is a S&W M&P9c 2.0 w/TS versus going all-in on a 1911 duty set up.

Still weighing my options. I am honestly envious of you folks who have digits slightly longer than mine.