Double Stacks and raccoon-sized hands

[Clusterfrack]

Aligning the barrel with the forearm has provided the following benefits for me.

It ensures that when the gun comes out of the holster, it enters my vision with the front sight close to centered in the rear sight.

It positions my trigger finger for a straight back squeeze while positioning my hand to apply straight forward pressure to the back of the grip, avoiding right or left pressure during the trigger squeeze.

It positions the best part of my hand to absorb recoil directly behind the gun.


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Here’s my grip. It does all these things, but the muzzle isn’t perfectly aligned with my arm bones.

[BillSWPA]

Here’s my grip. It does all these things, but the muzzle isn’t perfectly aligned with my arm bones.

Your hand position is only about 1/8 inch different than mine. The thumb side of my hand extends farther around the left side of the grip by about that much.

Based on your and other responses in this thread, clearly the barrel-bone alignment is not a universal principle, and may depend somewhat on hand size and shape as well as the grip configuration of the gun. Based on my results, I would suggest it as a good starting point for experimentation for anyone who is unhappy with their results. If someone is happy with their results, I would not tell them that they are doing it wrong if they do not see this alignment.

[JAD]

Developing a good grip, proper wrist tension, support, and stance are all required for shooting at a high level. But I don’t agree that alignment of the bore and the firearm is necessary or desirable.

Me neither. But I do find that aligning the bore of the firearm with the radius and ulna is a happy accident of getting the backstrap square between my metacarpal heads, which I refer to here clumsily as 'indexing.'

Indexing has a high degree of measured impact to my probability of placing a first shot out of the holster well and quickly. That skill, to me, is at least 80% of the technical application of a pistol.

There are other ways to index, but I haven't run into one that's as repeatable.

[JAD]

Here’s my grip. It does all these things, but the muzzle isn’t perfectly aligned with my arm bones.

Lookin' good Ray. I will take photos when not at work that we can compare. I bet we're talking about two sides of the same coin, and to whatever extent we're not, it's because you're a good shooter who practices a lot, and I'm a waswhousedto.

[Clusterfrack]

Me neither. But I do find that aligning the bore of the firearm with the radius and ulna is a happy accident of getting the backstrap square between my metacarpal heads, which I refer to here clumsily as 'indexing.'

Indexing has a high degree of measured impact to my probability of placing a first shot out of the holster well and quickly. That skill, to me, is at least 80% of the technical application of a pistol.

There are other ways to index, but I haven't run into one that's as repeatable.

My index seems to be driven primarily by my support hand, which may be why I can switch between Glocks and CZs and still have a good index. If I miss my grip, that tends to change how the sights track and return.

[JAD]

My index seems to be driven primarily by my support hand, which may be why I can switch between Glocks and CZs and still have a good index. If I miss my grip, that tends to change how the sights track and return.

How's that work SHO?

[Clusterfrack]

How's that work SHO?

Good question. I have to pay more attention when I draw a Glock and shoot SHO or WHO, or the front sight will end up slightly high.

HKs, Sigs, etc. with steep grip angles are more problematic for me, but I don’t shoot them.

[Clusterfrack]

Unfortunately I’ve already sold the G19. For reference, in my mind I am searching for an interaction with the trigger that’s more like this:


And less like this:


That’s what I mean by a 90* straight back trigger press. At least that’s what I’ve found works best for me to get a consistent trigger press when I shoot precision rifle. I am far behind most here when it comes to skill and practice with a pistol. So I may be going at this all wrong.


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I’m looking at your first picture, and now I understand the problem. I do not shoot with my trigger finger that way. Not even close.

I suggest not trying to have so much of your finger out.

[momano]

Crews, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest since my hands are smaller, and I've always been bothered with my accuracy with full sized Glocks.
I'm 65 and retired. I've no interest in competing. I'm an avid follower of P-F because of the knowledge base here. You actually haven't stated what your purpose is with double stack pistols (that I've picked up). If you, like me, are looking for a double stack for home defense and occasional carry- let me suggest what is my personal solution - buy a g45 and drift the rear sight so that it is self-defense accurate. If you, like a lot of Glock shooters shoot left and low, and you realistically asses that you will never put the training time in to train out of shooting low and left-- then drift the damn rear sight and drive on. I prefer the pumpkin on a fence post front sight picture-- but with driving the dot on the front, and drifting the rear sight, I think that , by God's grace, I'm self defense accurate. Part of what has driven me, on my journey, is that, I have arthritis and one-hand shooting is painful, and that I suspect that one-handed shooting may be a little more needful in what I asses my possible scenarios are. Blessings on you and finding your own best answer!

[Clusterfrack]

This comes up every now and then: should you adjust your sights to compensate for problems with your shooting? If you tend to shoot low, left with Glocks should you--as @momano suggests--adjust your sights to "correct" for this?

I hope I can convince you, @momano--and everyone else--that this is not a good idea for several reasons:

1. There is more than one cause for people missing what they are aiming at. These causes are not consistent in occurrence or amount. "Low, left" can be caused by the trigger press, but is often caused by pushing the gun down in anticipation of recoil. This type of error often gets amplified under stress or when the shooter is tired. We can observe spreads of many inches even at 3 yards. Obviously, this is unacceptable in a self-defense context where a miss can result in friendly fire or inability to stop the threat.

2. In order for a shooter to improve, they need to know why they are missing. Patching the problem with a band-aid solution like adjusting sights makes this much more difficult.

3. Guns and ammo do not retain "zero" forever. Sights drift, loads vary, parts wear. If a gun is sighted in to "correct" a shooting error, and a new deviation surfaces, how can this be diagnosed? Is it the gun? Is it the ammo? Is it the shooter? Or is it a combination of factors?

I've found that a laser can be a valuable tool in diagnosing why shots aren't going where people aim. Once you isolate the issue, it's much easier to fix it.