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Thread: Oklahomans, what just happened?

  1. #31
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    I do not work in a district that has tribal lands. I am completely outside of my lane on those issues.

    I had an indian law class in law school 25 + years ago and that has been it. We do training on those issues on a yearly basis at our national training center but those slots fill up with attys who work in districts that have tribal lands in them such that I have never been able to take the training when I otherwise had the time/inclination.


    I do know there are separate laws/policies that pertain depending on who the defendant is (native or not),who the victim is (native or not) and whether the crime occurred on tribal lands or not.

    Separate and apart from the Indian/Native/Tribal/Tribal Lands Question, there are federal statutes that typically cover crimes that would be considered "state" crime i.e. assault, robbery, burglary, rape, murder when they occur on federal land.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbninftry View Post
    This all came from someone that was convicted of murder by the state
    Point of order:

    Child rape, not murder.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Point of order:

    Child rape, not murder.
    I stand corrected

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Point of order:

    Child rape, not murder.
    This wouldn't' be a issue if we had just shot him once he was convicted...... as someone convicted of child rape should be.
    "So strong is this propensity of mankind, to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions, and excite their most violent conflicts." - James Madison, Federalist No 10

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcbusmc24 View Post
    This wouldn't' be a issue if we had just shot him once he was convicted...... as someone convicted of child rape should be.
    I firmly believe the death penalty is under-utilized, so you're preaching to the choir.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    @vcdgrips

    I know there is an act that allows the prosecution of state crimes in federal court if the crimes occurred on federal property...I don’t think that it’s used often (I’ve only been part of one case where we did that).

    Would that work on tribal land?
    The assimilation statute. I don't think so, that is normally for the "Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States." There are statutes specific to "Indians" and "Indian Country" and technically Indian nations are sovereign to one degree or another. I think 18 USC 1152/1153 applies rather than 18 USC 13.

    @Chuck Whitlock

    The thing with statutes is they are like having all the unfitted parts to build a 1911, you've only got the kit. Think of @vcdgrips Et Al. as a "Jason Burtons." That said, here are some starting points:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/13

    18 U.S. Code § 13.Laws of States adopted for areas within Federal jurisdiction

    (a)Whoever within or upon any of the places now existing or hereafter reserved or acquired as provided in section 7 of this title, or on, above, or below any portion of the territorial sea of the United States not within the jurisdiction of any State, Commonwealth, territory, possession, or district is guilty of any act or omission which, although not made punishable by any enactment of Congress, would be punishable if committed or omitted within the jurisdiction of the State, Territory, Possession, or District in which such place is situated, by the laws thereof in force at the time of such act or omission, shall be guilty of a like offense and subject to a like punishment.
    (b)
    (1)Subject to paragraph (2) and for purposes of subsection (a) of this section, that which may or shall be imposed through judicial or administrative action under the law of a State, territory, possession, or district, for a conviction for operating a motor vehicle under the influence of a drug or alcohol, shall be considered to be a punishment provided by that law. Any limitation on the right or privilege to operate a motor vehicle imposed under this subsection shall apply only to the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
    (2)
    (A)In addition to any term of imprisonment provided for operating a motor vehicle under the influence of a drug or alcohol imposed under the law of a State, territory, possession, or district, the punishment for such an offense under this section shall include an additional term of imprisonment of not more than 1 year, or if serious bodily injury of a minor is caused, not more than 5 years, or if death of a minor is caused, not more than 10 years, and an additional fine under this title, or both, if—
    (i)a minor (other than the offender) was present in the motor vehicle when the offense was committed; and
    (ii)the law of the State, territory, possession, or district in which the offense occurred does not provide an additional term of imprisonment under the circumstances described in clause (i).
    (B)For the purposes of subparagraph (A), the term “minor” means a person less than 18 years of age.
    (c)Whenever any waters of the territorial sea of the United States lie outside the territory of any State, Commonwealth, territory, possession, or district, such waters (including the airspace above and the seabed and subsoil below, and artificial islands and fixed structures erected thereon) shall be deemed, for purposes of subsection (a), to lie within the area of the State, Commonwealth, territory, possession, or district that it would lie within if the boundaries of such State, Commonwealth, territory, possession, or district were extended seaward to the outer limit of the territorial sea of the United States.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7

    18 U.S. Code § 7.Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States defined

    The term “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States”, as used in this title, includes:
    (1)The high seas, any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State, and any vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.
    (2)Any vessel registered, licensed, or enrolled under the laws of the United States, and being on a voyage upon the waters of any of the Great Lakes, or any of the waters connecting them, or upon the Saint Lawrence River where the same constitutes the International Boundary Line.
    (3)Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building.
    (4)Any island, rock, or key containing deposits of guano, which may, at the discretion of the President, be considered as appertaining to the United States.
    (5)Any aircraft belonging in whole or in part to the United States, or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or any State, Territory, district, or possession thereof, while such aircraft is in flight over the high seas, or over any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.
    (6)Any vehicle used or designed for flight or navigation in space and on the registry of the United States pursuant to the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, Including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies and the Convention on Registration of Objects Launched into Outer Space, while that vehicle is in flight, which is from the moment when all external doors are closed on Earth following embarkation until the moment when one such door is opened on Earth for disembarkation or in the case of a forced landing, until the competent authorities take over the responsibility for the vehicle and for persons and property aboard.
    (7)Any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to an offense by or against a national of the United States.
    (8)To the extent permitted by international law, any foreign vessel during a voyage having a scheduled departure from or arrival in the United States with respect to an offense committed by or against a national of the United States.
    (9)With respect to offenses committed by or against a national of the United States as that term is used in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act—
    (A)the premises of United States diplomatic, consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States, including the buildings, parts of buildings, and land appurtenant or ancillary thereto or used for purposes of those missions or entities, irrespective of ownership; and
    (B)residences in foreign States and the land appurtenant or ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of those missions or entities or used by United States personnel assigned to those missions or entities.
    Nothing in this paragraph shall be deemed to supersede any treaty or international agreement with which this paragraph conflicts. This paragraph does not apply with respect to an offense committed by a person described in section 3261(a) of this title.
    Statutes specific to "Indians" and "Indian Country"

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/t...t-I/chapter-53

    18 U.S. Code CHAPTER 53—INDIANS


    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1151

    18 U.S. Code § 1151.Indian country defined

    Except as otherwise provided in sections 1154 and 1156 of this title, the term “Indian country”, as used in this chapter, means (a) all land within the limits of any Indian reservation under the jurisdiction of the United States Government, notwithstanding the issuance of any patent, and, including rights-of-way running through the reservation, (b) all dependent Indian communities within the borders of the United States whether within the original or subsequently acquired territory thereof, and whether within or without the limits of a state, and (c) all Indian allotments, the Indian titles to which have not been extinguished, including rights-of-way running through the same.
    18 U.S. Code § 1152.Laws governing

    Except as otherwise expressly provided by law, the general laws of the United States as to the punishment of offenses committed in any place within the sole and exclusive jurisdiction of the United States, except the District of Columbia, shall extend to the Indian country.

    This section shall not extend to offenses committed by one Indian against the person or property of another Indian, nor to any Indian committing any offense in the Indian country who has been punished by the local law of the tribe, or to any case where, by treaty stipulations, the exclusive jurisdiction over such offenses is or may be secured to the Indian tribes respectively.
    18 U.S. Code § 1153.Offenses committed within Indian country

    (a)Any Indian who commits against the person or property of another Indian or other person any of the following offenses, namely, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, maiming, a felony under chapter 109A, incest, a felony assault under section 113, an assault against an individual who has not attained the age of 16 years, felony child abuse or neglect, arson, burglary, robbery, and a felony under section 661 of this title within the Indian country, shall be subject to the same law and penalties as all other persons committing any of the above offenses, within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States.
    (b)Any offense referred to in subsection (a) of this section that is not defined and punished by Federal law in force within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States shall be defined and punished in accordance with the laws of the State in which such offense was committed as are in force at the time of such offense.
    18 U.S. Code § 1162.State jurisdiction over offenses committed by or against Indians in the Indian country
    U.S. Code
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    (a)Each of the States or Territories listed in the following table shall have jurisdiction over offenses committed by or against Indians in the areas of Indian country listed opposite the name of the State or Territory to the same extent that such State or Territory has jurisdiction over offenses committed elsewhere within the State or Territory, and the criminal laws of such State or Territory shall have the same force and effect within such Indian country as they have elsewhere within the State or Territory:
    State or Territory of

    Indian country affected

    Alaska

    All Indian country within the State, except that on Annette Islands, the Metlakatla Indian community may exercise jurisdiction over offenses committed by Indians in the same manner in which such jurisdiction may be exercised by Indian tribes in Indian country over which State jurisdiction has not been extended.

    California

    All Indian country within the State.

    Minnesota

    All Indian country within the State, except the Red Lake Reservation.

    Nebraska

    All Indian country within the State.

    Oregon

    All Indian country within the State, except the Warm Springs Reservation.

    Wisconsin

    All Indian country within the State.

    (b)Nothing in this section shall authorize the alienation, encumbrance, or taxation of any real or personal property, including water rights, belonging to any Indian or any Indian tribe, band, or community that is held in trust by the United States or is subject to a restriction against alienation imposed by the United States; or shall authorize regulation of the use of such property in a manner inconsistent with any Federal treaty, agreement, or statute or with any regulation made pursuant thereto; or shall deprive any Indian or any Indian tribe, band, or community of any right, privilege, or immunity afforded under Federal treaty, agreement, or statute with respect to hunting, trapping, or fishing or the control, licensing, or regulation thereof.
    (c)The provisions of sections 1152 and 1153 of this chapter shall not be applicable within the areas of Indian country listed in subsection (a) of this section as areas over which the several States have exclusive jurisdiction.
    (d)Notwithstanding subsection (c), at the request of an Indian tribe, and after consultation with and consent by the Attorney General—
    (1)sections 1152 and 1153 shall apply in the areas of the Indian country of the Indian tribe; and
    (2)jurisdiction over those areas shall be concurrent among the Federal Government, State governments, and, where applicable, tribal governments.
    Last edited by HCM; 07-11-2020 at 01:04 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    @vcdgrips

    I know there is an act that allows the prosecution of state crimes in federal court if the crimes occurred on federal property...I don’t think that it’s used often (I’ve only been part of one case where we did that).

    Would that work on tribal land?

    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The assimilation statute. I don't think so, that is normally for the "Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States." There are statutes specific to "Indians" and "Indian Country" and technically Indian nations are sovereign to one degree or another. I think 18 USC 1152/1153 applies rather than 18 USC 13.

    @Chuck Whitlock
    HCM has it right...assimilation. A tribal member got 18 months in Club Fed for assaulting me and a BIA officer during an arrest. The part with me was prosecuted under assimilation.


    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post

    I do know there are separate laws/policies that pertain depending on who the defendant is (native or not),who the victim is (native or not) and whether the crime occurred on tribal lands or not.

    Separate and apart from the Indian/Native/Tribal/Tribal Lands Question, there are federal statutes that typically cover crimes that would be considered "state" crime i.e. assault, robbery, burglary, rape, murder when they occur on federal land.
    Vcd's first paragraph covers the facts of a case which determine whether state, tribal, or Federal law has either sole or concurrent jurisdiction. Generally, tribes have no jurisdiction over non-Natives. They were recently (within the past 6-8 years) granted some authority over non-Natives with regard to domestic violence cases under the Violence Against Women Act. This act also gave tribes the ability to incarcerate for up to three years(?). This expanded authority requires, among other things, that the tribal court judge is a member of the Bar, the defendant is provided a public defender, etc. The tribe that I worked for was already doing all of that stuff. Typically, tribal courts can only incarcerate for up to one year.

    Vcd's second paragraph basically describes the Major Crimes Act, but includes aggravated assault and not just simple assault. A good friend of mine who recently retired from the FBI spend most of his career investigating violent crimes in Indian Country.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  8. #38
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    Working Indian Country cases is a federal specialty unto its own. For both agents/officers and the prosecutors.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    HCM has it right...assimilation. A tribal member got 18 months in Club Fed for assaulting me and a BIA officer during an arrest. The part with me was prosecuted under assimilation.
    Yep, that’s it.

    We prosecuted a state vehicular manslaughter charge in federal court since it occurred on VA property.

  10. #40
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    To expand a bit..a hypothetical:

    A guy commits an armed robbery of a convenience store located on a Rez. Jurisdiction is based on status (Native or not) of actor(s) and victim(s). So, the answer can be different depending upon that. Say the robber/store owner/clerk are all non-Native. State law governs, as if the reservation didn't exist, except that the Feds have concurrent jurisdiction under Major Crimes Act. If all parties are Native, the the tribe and Feds have concurrent jurisdiction. White actor + Native victim? Federal jurisdiction only. What if the robber is white, store owner white, but clerk Native? Or switch it up however you like. Clear as mud?
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

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