Individual Room Clearing at Gunsite Academy

[vcdgrips]

I am poster 31. How many of the 20ish people before me posted a tactical critique having never having cleared a structure with a firearm in real life or in a shoot house applying the ROEs demonstrated? I know Eric, JAD, myself, GJM, Trooper224 and Blues have. I am curious about the others.

I would acknowledge that his muzzle looked awfully close to covering his support hand. Looking like it did and actually doing it is difficult to tell given the camera angle as the margin could be a few degrees/inches. I would note his trigger finger was high up on the slide near the ejection port.

Full Disclosure- I have cleared the same or similar house at Gunsite. I have also cleared houses at Thunder Ranch and with the FBI Regional SWAT Team. It was quite a learning experience each and every time.

[Jim Watson]

PD here offered a series of three classes to Lone Homeowners.
No 1 was about what you get where training is required for a CCW permit. A box of ammo would get you by.

No 2 had a safety refresher, some square range refresher. Then you cleared part of the darkened classroom building with flashlight and rubber pistol versus a lurking role player. Then a pass clearing the shoot house live fire versus pictorial and dummy shoot-no shoot targets. The day ran long and I was glad I had kept a flashlight in my pocket, that shoot house got dim.

No 3 had safety refresher, awkward positions on the square range, a field course akin to IPSC, and a pass clearing the shoot house with Sims versus role playing armed assailant and panicked bystander.

Not really training in two days, but familiarization with the process. I know I was adrenalated during and aware of my limitations after.

[SoCalDep]

I am poster 31. How many of the 20ish people before me posted a tactical critique having never having cleared a structure with a firearm in real life or in a shoot house applying the ROEs demonstrated? I know Eric, JAD, myself, GJM, Trooper224 and Blues have. I am curious about the others.

I would acknowledge that his muzzle looked awfully close to covering his support hand. Looking like it did and actually doing it is difficult to tell given the camera angle as the margin could be a few degrees/inches. I would note his trigger finger was high up on the slide near the ejection port.

Full Disclosure- I have cleared the same or similar house at Gunsite. I have also cleared houses at Thunder Ranch and with the FBI Regional SWAT Team. It was quite a learning experience each and every time.

I’m curious about lots of things. I’ve made lots of mistakes. Thankfully I’m still around to learn from them. That context helps me learn from others as well.

Real life OR a shoot house? They are not the same. In many cases real life is confirmation bias. The shoot house can be too.

If you attended training and were exposed to a shoot house you have a perspective. If you cleared a house looking for bad people (as a cop or a person checking out that”bump in the night”) you have another independent perspective.

I’ve done both a lot and work with guys who have done both a lot and have pulled tiggers in the latter case. Ultimately, this is an Internet forum evaluating an edited video that has been produced for a certain audience and choreographed for a specific outcome. Those with experience can critique it all day but it’s a production (though a pretty good one) and neither it, nor ANY DISCUSSION HERE will replace actual training and experience. No shoot house will effectively (sims comes closest) replicate the decision-making process that leads to pointing a gun at another person and pressing the trigger while knowing you can’t take that back. No training equals that.

I’m not saying this discussion is bad - just put it in context. If this interests you then find a class, vet your instructor, and then repeat. When reality appears - decisions don’t have a second run.

[GJM]

This may be relevant:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....blems-(pistol)

[GJM]

And the FOF part from the AAR:

TD3

We started with some shooting at 15, 25 and 50 yards on the square range. Ron commented that they frequently observe students having trouble at 25, and especially 50 yards, with HD/Ameriglo style large front sights. I was still shooting my Glock 17 from the night before, as I wanted to use that holster for the simunition pistol. After my classmates left, Cory and I did draws to the steel at 50, followed by support hand only at 50. My 17 and HD sights worked fine.

Then it was off to a series of four force on force drills. Despite having about 800 hours of level D jet simulator time in my log book, I was feeling anxious, as it has been a while since I did force on force drills, and the only time involving a simunition gun was at NTI back at Gunsite eons ago. The lead up only intensified the experience -- safety briefing, remove all weapon like things, pat down, wand with a metal detector and segregation with a watcher to make sure we stayed un-weaponized. It continued when putting on the groin protector, heavy jacket, gloves and head/neck protector. Left over moisture from the prior days' weather gave all of us moisture and fogging in our goggles. We were told that if we successfully solved the problem, shooting might not be necessary, and at anytime if anyone involved said "marshmallow," the scenario was over. We were also given instructions to not intentionally shoot anyone in the face. Good news -- for a while, simunition rounds were unavailable, and they had to use an alternative, name escaping me, that really broke skin. I was also told Gunsite has a no flash bang rule after a SEAL team came through, and flash banged a number of the Gunsite staff role players.

FOF #1:

I was led over to an indoor simulator by Ron, and briefed that I was going in to buy a Powerball ticket in a convenience store in a bad part of town. I approached the counter, and the store clerk, noting a shady looking guy about 110 degrees to my right and behind me. Then I felt a big shove, and a gunman had run in the door from behind me, pointed a gun at the clerk, and announced it was a robbery. I backed to my left towards cover, put my hand on my sim gun, and tried to figure out who was who, what to do, and what my authority to do something was. I was weighing my legal or practical standing to shoot someone that was likely just robbing a store, what my responsibility would be if my intervention caused the clerk to be shot, and what the other guy was up to. I figured I needed to do something, so I drew and told the robber to freeze, and then drop the gun, all the while eye sprinting between the robber and the other guy. The bad guy dropped his gun on the counter. Then he started talking to me, and at the same time went for his gun. I shot him two or three times, but in the process he wracked off two shots, one of which hit at the junction of my groin protector and Safariland holster. As he literally grabbed and hail mary'd the shots, it reinforced the lesson that distance is your friend.

In the debrief, it was clear that I had missed my chance to go out the front door while the robber had his back to me, and that I was the reactor and not the actor. I was also told if I took my eyes off the other guy in the store, he would have joined the fight against me. A fellow student shot the bad guy, and in not promptly depressing his muzzle to a low ready, and scanning, lost eyes on the other guy who promptly shot him. My take away was that a decent plan quickly executed may well beat a phenomenal plan that takes time to formulate and execute.

FOF #2:

Next scenario was to go to lunch at a restaurant. I entered the structure, noted several others inside, and picked a seat with good visibility, minimal six o'clock exposure, and access to two exits. Interestingly, I felt calm. It was almost like one scenario filled in my fear of the unknown and allowed me to then draw on my years of simulator experience in the jet. Flight scenarios are very realistic, with one big exception, and that is a bad outcome in the sim is unlike to lead to death. That difference, in my experience, completely changes the pucker factor. You may be embarrassed, criticized, sweat, and on and on, but you will still be alive afterwards. Perhaps a gamer at heart, I also decided if I was about to be shot, I would yell "popcorn," (marshmallow was the actual surrender word) and see if that diversion would confuse my attacker.

As I was deciding what to have to eat, a scruffy guy barged in the front door of the restaurant, and grabbed someone. I started to try to figure out what was going down, stopped myself, and bolted while I had a chance. Out the door I went, and the scenario was over. No idea who was the good guy, who was the bad guy, what I should do, if at all to intervene, but I called 911 from outside and let them sort it out. Turns out the intruder shot the person inside, but I didn't hear that in their struggle.

FOF #3:

I was to exit the restaurant, get in my car, and drive away. My car was a white mini-van with tinted windows, that blocked my vision into the vehicle. As I approached the driver's door, I decided to check the sliding door to see if it was locked. As it wasn't, I pulled it open quickly, and sure enough a bad guy was crouched back to me with a big knife, ready to ambush the driver. I quickly drew my pistol, muzzle averted, poked my left index finger into his back, which caused him to yell "marshmallow." It was funny that he surrendered to my index finger, but he didn't want to be shot with a bunch of sim rounds at one foot. Turns out my classmates got to figure out what to do with a knife at their throat, from sitting in the driver's seat.

FOF #4:

This scenario was following a hiking trail, which I was looking forward to, as it would be like the donga but with thinking, moving adversaries. I sure was hoping to get to do some shooting, with or without "popcorn." As I went down the trail, two hikers passed me going the opposite direction without a problem. Around a corner, I came upon a guy sprawled on the ground, saying "help me." I stopped about thirty feet away, determined he was breathing, there were no puddles of blood, and stayed back while I called an ambulance. Turns out he had a large knife in his hand, hidden from my view.

I hope these scenarios lead to some discussion about the value of force on force generally, what I did, and how force on force compares to and differs from real life.

Next it was lunch time, and back to a range for an afternoon of challenging steel shooting. I was pretty happy as I was mostly one for one on steel, except on the runs I intentionally tried to burn down, and to which I announced in advance. It was interesting to see how others tried to balance speed and accuracy on difficult steel. On any drill involving difficult steel and transitions, I was significantly faster. However, on drills like a close draw to one large steel, or shooting that didn't involve transitions, the guy with the best grip, reaction to the timer, or maybe that was just lucky, won.

Next it was back to the classroom for closing remarks from Ken Campbell, COO of Gunsite, and then Cory and Ron. While the weather wasn't what I hoped for in October in Arizona, we had a great bunch of students, thoughtful instructors, and a superb facility to train on. Can't wait to get back there!

[Hambo]

This Lone Homeowner would figure on letting the room clear itself.
Stand well back prepared to shoot at a threat coming out. If said threat goes out a window, bye bye.

One thing I learned in SWAT while doing slow building clearing is that it takes a shitload of guys to cover all threat areas. That knowledge doesn't make me want to do it solo.

I'm no LAV fan, but let's all do a movement drill and post a vid up here for peer review and see how we all do.

Yeah, buddy. Nut up or shut up.

I am poster 31. How many of the 20ish people before me posted a tactical critique having never having cleared a structure with a firearm in real life or in a shoot house applying the ROEs demonstrated?

BTDT, and pointed a pistol at my left hand while opening doors. In classes, FoF is the way to run the shoot house. It slows students down when they can get shot.

[blues]

I am poster 31. How many of the 20ish people before me posted a tactical critique having never having cleared a structure with a firearm in real life or in a shoot house applying the ROEs demonstrated? I know Eric, JAD, myself, GJM, Trooper224 and Blues have. I am curious about the others.

I would acknowledge that his muzzle looked awfully close to covering his support hand. Looking like it did and actually doing it is difficult to tell given the camera angle as the margin could be a few degrees/inches. I would note his trigger finger was high up on the slide near the ejection port.

Full Disclosure- I have cleared the same or similar house at Gunsite. I have also cleared houses at Thunder Ranch and with the FBI Regional SWAT Team. It was quite a learning experience each and every time.

Thank you for the mention, @vcdgrips.

I didn't offer a critique because I have been through enough of these scenarios, both in training and during actual call outs to know that reality rarely conforms perfectly to theory...or practice.

[psalms144.1]

A little background on me, I spent almost five years at USSOCOM running protection for the Commander, so had the opportunity to get house/room clearing training from CAG, DEVGRU, and any number of big name commercial training outfits that train those guys and other three letter tactical teams. Got to put that training into action a time or two, and have done more than my fair share of house clearing as part of search warrant service during 20+ years in Federal LE.

Back before the Covid shut us down, I was at a week long Active Shooter response course, mostly dry-gun training, culminating in two days of Sims and FOF. It had been almost six years since I'd done any real tactical training, and it was a huge eye opener for me. The gross muscle movements were still there, but the little details were rusty, to say the least. Got called out at least once for flagging the guy in front of me as I tried to transition my pistol outboard prior to stacking up outside a door. I thought my muzzle was clear, but the instructor saw it differently, so I took my ass chewing and drove on. On a totally unrelated note, I continue to NOT be a fan of Sul, though my agency seems to think it's the shizzle.

So I'm not going to nitpick any of Larry's techniques, because I don't think I'd do any better (and likely WAY worse) with a cameraman hovering recording my every squeaky fart for posterity. But I'll stand by my position that, barring folks who live like I do with split floorplans where kids are on the other side of likely entrances for BGs, hunkering in place is a WAY mo bettah solution than house clearing solo...

[Hambo]

-Shoot house 101 is just that. You learn to work angles and consider a lot of things you never have before, but it's fake. You can move too fast, aren't allowed to do certain things.
-FoF ups the stress level because you can lose (humiliation) or take some pain. It's more real, but you know you won't be going to the trauma center, morgue, and that you won't kill anyone.
-I'm not articulate enough to be able to explain how it feels when you're doing it for real, but it's not like training. You've got to be really sharp because it doesn't take a lot of fuck up to get shot.

[lwt16]

24 plus years on the streets. Been in multiple classes, FOF shoot houses with elevated catwalks, active shooter classes, etc. No telling how many residences/businesses cleared in that time. I've also taught others on clearing techniques.

Solo clearing is super tough to do mistake free and offers little margin for error if it all goes to Hades.

I've done it due to manpower issues....but never felt confident that I wouldn't have been shot if someone was intent on doing so. Always prayed that the round(s) would hit the vest and I could press the ambush and prevail.....but still.....getting hit isn't exactly a "win" in my book.

If available, we always await a second or third unit to respond before clearing. Angles are tough in real structures, and furniture, structural decay, critters, trash, bio-hazards.........all of that adds to the level of difficulty. I've tripped, fell through flooring, been stung by wasps, attacked by roaches, inhaled crack smoke, stepped on maxi pads and needles..........all while trying not to flag/laser myself and utilizing light and sound discipline.

You have to always be expecting to find your hidden foe at every turn. That way, when you do find them, it's not as much of a surprise to the system.

Sometimes when you find them it leads to a physical struggle while holstering your weapon...which offers even more chances to hose something up.

Solo clearing.......is truly the suck. I get it...sometimes it has to be done......but you are way behind the curve if there is someone waiting to ambush you. Even with a high level of skill and experience, you still need a lot of smiles from Lady Luck on your side. Throw in some low light and that makes it even worse. I took a class once where we had to solo clear a shoot house at night against paper targets using Simunitions. I was able to "clean" it....but in the real world there would have been no way I would have been able to navigate a non sterilized environment like they had there. There was some furniture and such in the house but not a real world amount...and most of my navigation was done with "blip" lighting so I moved in darkness quite a bit. Even some of the "bad guys" were shot in the dark after temporarily illuminating them for target ID then shooting and moving in the dark. They gigged me for it but I did get 100 percent hits so they saw how I "gamed" it a tad.

Had it been a real structure, I'd have spent more time falling down than marking bad guys with sim rounds.

Regards.