Individual Room Clearing at Gunsite Academy

[Hambo]

There is a field of thought, of which I'm a member, that believes if the trainee is making mistakes the scenario should be 'paused' and the trainee coached through the problem area. Then the scenario is redone until the trainee is able to complete a 'perfect run. These training scenarios should be run at 3/4 or deliberate speed. Then ideally, the tempo is increased until the trainee is having success at full speed.

I say this because after atending my first Simunitions Instructor course I was doing scenarios which 'exploited a weakness or fuck up' with the idea that getting hosed by a bad guy without getting a hit themselves would cause less stellar recruits to rethink their career choice. Problem was that in actuality none did, they had no confidence in their ability to prevail, but their ego wouldn't let them quit at that point.

I think we're on the same page, but talking about different people/parts of the organization. In training small groups of new guys coming to the team, if they were totally fucking up we did pause or completely stop scenarios, while explaining what they were doing that was about to get them killed. We were also working with experienced officers who had applied to go to a different unit, not new recruits. Although they had been recommended and evaluated prior to training, if they couldn't get their shit together, we didn't have to hope they'd quit because that decision could be made for them.

GJM said "If your team gets killed on every entry, it quickly becomes a negative, and pretty soon your team doesn’t want to clear a house", and that's what I'm referring to. Nowhere in this am I saying that every scenario should be designed to kill every person or team that attempts it.

[willie]

I know nothing about the subject but ask this: would not a dog perform this role better than a man? In some cases I can see how it would be a death sentence for the dog. A friend was a dog handler in Vietnam. He would not send his dog into a tunnel.

[Redhat]

So going back to solo clearing as in the video, can anyone here comment on differences between the way Gunsite teaches it vs Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch?


And a couple of others:

- The dangers of bad guys firing through doors and walls has already been mentioned, how do we train for that?

- If multiple BG's are in your house, when that first round gets fired I assume they will react, so do they add this is to their training somewhere down the line?

[UNM1136]

I know nothing about the subject but ask this: would not a dog perform this role better than a man? In some cases I can see how it would be a death sentence for the dog. A friend was a dog handler in Vietnam. He would not send his dog into a tunnel.

Depends on the dog. In college a friend kept his lab in a crate next to the bed so he could send her to greet the intruder. His rationale was that it would tell him if the intruder was armed. Genetics and training play a role here. One of my best friends thinks that my malinois would not hesitate to protect me. I am more realistic. My dog appears to have the genes, but he has never bitten someone without protective equipment. I would say that the percentages are on my side, but not a sure thing. Training dogs to seek out intruders and deal with them is an art. Different dogs have different personalities, different thoughts, and different superstitious behaviors.

Some will and some won't. Finding, selecting, and training capable dogs is not a full time job, but there is a considerable investment in money and time.

pat

[Willard]

My dog appears to have the genes, but he has never bitten someone without protective equipment.

Pardon thread derail, but have you tried working with hidden sleeve?

[Coyotesfan97]

I know nothing about the subject but ask this: would not a dog perform this role better than a man? In some cases I can see how it would be a death sentence for the dog. A friend was a dog handler in Vietnam. He would not send his dog into a tunnel.

I do this every week. Well not solo <<shrug>>. A trained dog will clear that house in a fraction of the time and find hidden suspects nearly 100% of the time. It can be a death sentence for the dog. If you know there are/is armed suspect(s) inside its not a dog call it’s a SWAT call. Generally sending a dog into that environment is a suicide run.

But most of the time we are clearing a business not knowing if the suspect is still inside. If my dog gets shot clearing a structure he just saved an Officer from death or serious injury. We love them but they’re tools to save our lives.

Depends on the dog. In college a friend kept his lab in a crate next to the bed so he could send her to greet the intruder. His rationale was that it would tell him if the intruder was armed. Genetics and training play a role here. One of my best friends thinks that my malinois would not hesitate to protect me. I am more realistic. My dog appears to have the genes, but he has never bitten someone without protective equipment. I would say that the percentages are on my side, but not a sure thing. Training dogs to seek out intruders and deal with them is an art. Different dogs have different personalities, different thoughts, and different superstitious behaviors.

Some will and some won't. Finding, selecting, and training capable dogs is not a full time job, but there is a considerable investment in money and time.

pat

Even with police dogs you aren’t sure if a dog will bite a person for real until he does. The KNPV dogs we use are bred specifically from lines that go back multiple generations They have been trained from the time they are puppies to bite. We can simulate bite scenarios with no equipment in muzzles or have the dog bite a decoy with no equipment other than a leg or arm wrapped in newspaper and Kevlar. This is as close as it gets. You have to work the dog away from equipment like the suit and the sleeve.

Your bite trained dog is much more likely to defend you than an untrained dog but you just don’t know. We all know dogs don’t think like we do. Fight or flight is the thing. If they choose flight there is no shame to them to run. If they choose fight stand by because they’re thinking they have to fight to live. There is an art watching an experienced decoy pushing a dog right up to edge in a scenario and then letting him win. If he pushes too hard you might scar a dog for life.

Every Police dog has a weird quirk. Every one.

[UNM1136]

One of my favorite parts of decoying is muzzlefighting. You can get the shit knocked out of you, but teaching a dog to use his body to take someone down, rather than just his jaws is just so freakin' awesome. Muzzled deployments are on the rise here. A muzzle to the balls still sucks.

pat

[UNM1136]

Pardon thread derail, but have you tried working with hidden sleeve?

My days at the working dog club ended when the wife had a cancer scare. Hopefully next year I can return to the club. I would rather teach him to muzzle fight before we go to a hidden sleeve. But a hidden sleeve on a passive decoy is the final step before turning him loose on the world...

pat

[Willard]

My days at the working dog club ended when the wife had a cancer scare. Hopefully next year I can return to the club. I would rather teach him to muzzle fight before we go to a hidden sleeve. But a hidden sleeve on a passive decoy is the final step before turning him loose on the world...

pat

Sorry to learn that. Hope no more scares like that going forward.

[Coyotesfan97]

My days at the working dog club ended when the wife had a cancer scare. Hopefully next year I can return to the club. I would rather teach him to muzzle fight before we go to a hidden sleeve. But a hidden sleeve on a passive decoy is the final step before turning him loose on the world...

pat

Have you guys done newspaper bites? Zero equipment odor on a passive decoy. The handler has to do a directed bite. If they’ll bite the decoy’s arm or leg they’ll bite for real. It’s one of our last tests in our patrol schools.