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Thread: Individual Room Clearing at Gunsite Academy

  1. #61
    I don't know the first thing about anything.

    LAV's deliberate shot pacing caught my attention for it's lack of tacticool-ness.

    Then I see these comments by John Chapman buried in a thread on Facebook:

    "All marksmanship is theoretical until applied to an environment other than the square range. "

    "Half a 3x5 card in the Shoothouse environment. Any distance, any angle. No exceptions."
    David S.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    Have you guys done newspaper bites? Zero equipment odor on a passive decoy. The handler has to do a directed bite. If they’ll bite the decoy’s arm or leg they’ll bite for real. It’s one of our last tests in our patrol schools.
    I haven't heard of them, but my paricipation was rather limited, by design. The reason I was decoying was because I was afraid of the dogs. The local club training director is a decades long SME for the State, the German working dog groups, and one of the few non dutch to join the KNPV(not allowed to title dogs, but VERY familiar with their training methodologies).

    I will ask him about it next time I see him...

    pat

  3. #63
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Phoenix Metro, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    I haven't heard of them, but my paricipation was rather limited, by design. The reason I was decoying was because I was afraid of the dogs. The local club training director is a decades long SME for the State, the German working dog groups, and one of the few non dutch to join the KNPV(not allowed to title dogs, but VERY familiar with their training methodologies).

    I will ask him about it next time I see him...

    pat
    I’m betting he’s heard of it if not done it. It’s an advanced technique that tests the dog with no equipment odor. Basically you wrap newspaper around an arm between the wrist and elbow or the leg between the ankle and knee. We like to layer newspaper and Kevlar and you tape it with wrapping tape as you go. After the wrapping is done you cover it with clothing.

    We like sitting in a chair for an arm bite and I’ve seen lying on the floor with a leg wrap. We’ll do an On leash area Search to find the decoy who is passive. He gets challenged and the handler moves up and places the dog on the bite. The handler has to have the dog’s head under control because there’s a limited target. Lots of praise on the bite and then you take him off. The wraps good for a couple bites. If you don’t use enough newspaper it’s a self correcting error.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  4. #64
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    indeed it was, though I’m sorry that thread didn’t produce more discussion — it’s one of the better AARs on this forum. Who is this Sarah Palin person?

  5. #65
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    Kansas City
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat;[U
    1082197[/U]]So going back to solo clearing as in the video, can anyone here comment on differences between the way Gunsite teaches it vs Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch? line?
    prefixing all with the fact that my information is grossly outdated and only applies to training, never drawn a gun in anger:

    I did 250 in ‘97 and multiple trips through TR ‘98-2002. My house and donga runs at GTC we’re with Bill Jeans and Bill Furr respectively, and my house and tower runs were all Clint or in one case Heidi. At that particular time, I experienced no doctrinal differences that I recall. The experience was different depending on the instructor. All the runs were near the top most valuable experiences I’ve had in firearms training, not because I expect to clear a scenario solo (or in a team as in a few of my TR runs), not because of the ‘adrenaline’ thing, but because of the removal of novelty and the perspective on technical priorities that those experiences provided to me. Removal of novelty is a big thing for me (@John Hearne) and clearing is third best to FoF and real life for that objective (last I checked). Technical priority is a short way of saying that shoot houses give you good insight into some things that might matter in a fight that don’t seem as important on the square range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat;[U
    1082197[/U]]
    - The dangers of bad guys firing through doors and walls has already been mentioned, how do we train for that? line?
    Sure, that’s the point of the cover versus concealment discussion that begins in anyone’s 250. It is foundational to TR’s shoot move shoot philosophy and one of the useful paradoxes of shoot houses — the need to move quickly versus the need to move carefully. Spending time mentally wargaming cover versus concealment in a convenience store, at work, and in your house may be more valuable than dry fire speed reload practice, as if one is forced to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat;[U
    1082197[/U]]So
    - If multiple BG's are in your house, when that first round gets fired I assume they will react, so do they add this is to their training somewhere down the line?
    Thats why FoF is better than a paper shoot house, but you can do a shoot house in 250.

  6. #66
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    SoCal
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    ... Technical priority is a short way of saying that shoot houses give you good insight into some things that might matter in a fight that don’t seem as important on the square range.

    ... Spending time mentally wargaming cover versus concealment in a convenience store, at work, and in your house may be more valuable than dry fire speed reload practice, as if one is forced to choose...
    These are great insights and recommendations. I have cleared hundreds of buildings and none of them looked like a mostly clean shoot house, to include my kid messy home. You definitely learn and continuously practice the basics in shoot houses but average homes and definitely the types of homes that often require LE searching can be a total mess to include crazy floorplan arrangements.

    Get your training, shoot house experience, and continuously wargame the heck out of your home and pretty much anywhere you go. This will make any eventual real deal clearing that much easier to process.

    That said, my first introduction to building clearing by a very highly experienced instructor was the description "It's a $**t sandwich you have to keep choking down small bites of...". Individual room clearing is even more fraught with unknown dangers. Note the above description of many Tier 1 types being taken by surprise.

    Practice, practice, practice and wargame your options and best/worst choices in as many situations as possible so when you have to do it for real your brain has more to work with. Shoot houses are just the start, the rest isn't perfectly defined given all the possibilities. You have to learn to live in the unknown and keep generating options.

    Dennis.



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