Poli-Sci: Riots + Fireworks --> Time for Water Cannons?

[RJ]

Mods - please feel free to move to .leo forum if more appropriate.

I've been wondering lately, in view of (specifically) riots being declared especially in say Portland OR, why LEO are not employing the tactics of using high pressure water in responses? Watching the over night feed of videos in the area around the Justice Center, in particular, the mob seems to be lighting fires, setting off professional-grade fire works, as well as direct projectiles either thrown or propelled (e.g. frozen water bottles, wrist rockets shooting marbles or shrapnel).

Please note: I am in no way objecting to people's right to protest and peaceably assemble under the First Amendment.

I'm talking about once it goes beyond that, in terms of a riot being declared in a specific area, with a mob armed specifically with flammable weaponized objects, it would seem getting everybody there a bit wet, might both dampen their ardour, as well as literally extinguish their ability to launch fireworks. In terms of US Law Enforcement, I don't recall water cannon being used in recent memory. Is it because of the optics in terms of previous use during the Civil Rights marches in e.g. Selma AL?

Are there any specific legal constraints in terms of the law, or previous practice guidelines, preventing this tactic from being used?

Are "water cannons" even available if the local command authority opts to use them? Are Fire Trucks an option? (seems like the obvious answer, but that of course removes a critical life saving asset from the local area in the event they are needed.)

Are there any specifics in terms of pressure for the stream of water being used?

Where are water cannons in the spectrum of applying force, in terms of riot control? More or less dangerous than using a baton?

Too much fallout in terms of collateral damage to innocent bystanders who might be in the area?

Thoughts?

[Caballoflaco]

Not LEO; but do you remember the 60’s? What city leaders or police chiefs do you think would be willing to have side by side photos of then/now protestors being blasted with hoses on the local evening news.

I don’t think it’s politically tenable.

[TQP]

We don't/won't provide equipment for this.

Beyond the optics, which are more than enough reason not to, our equipment isn't designed with that in mind.

I can expand on that if anyone is interested. Any excuse to nerd out about fire trucks.

[Caballoflaco]

We don't/won't provide equipment for this.

Beyond the optics, which are more than enough reason not to, our equipment isn't designed with that in mind.

I can expand on that if anyone is interested. Any excuse to nerd out about fire trucks.

One of my best friends’ grandfather was a Fire Captain in Birmingham during the civil rights movement in the 60’s. He told me that being involved in the police response led to them getting shot at on a fairly regular basis thereafter.

Also; I would like to learn more about fire trucks.

[Hieronymous]

May not be a water cannon, but it is Soylent Green Approved:

[Nephrology]

I can expand on that if anyone is interested. Any excuse to nerd out about fire trucks.

Nerd out about fire trucks!!

From the ages of 4-6 I had a little fireman costume that I insisted on wearing nearly every day, and a Sesame Street firefighter VHS tape that I managed to wear out from watching so many times. My mom is convinced I never grew out of this phase, and she is probably right.

[JRB]

Nerd out about fire trucks!!

From the ages of 4-6 I had a little fireman costume that I insisted on wearing nearly every day, and a Sesame Street firefighter VHS tape that I managed to wear out from watching so many times. My mom is convinced I never grew out of this phase, and she is probably right.

When I was 3, my Mom took me to the grocery store and outside was a pumper truck and a single crewmember keeping an eye on it while the crew shopped for groceries. I proudly walked up to the truck, looked at it, and said 'this is a pumper truck!' which was apparently a lot more advanced than the crewmember expected - because I still clearly remember his astonished, jaw-open expression. My Mom wished she had a camera to take a picture of that moment, and she still loves telling that story to people.

Funny thing, I started noticing fire trucks. Then I started noticing trucks, and noticing words on commercial trucks. The first word I ever read was 'Yellow' from a Yellow trucking company truck. Then I heard a muscle car of some kind and loved the noise it made, and the seed was planted and I became a car dork from there.

So really, it all started with fire trucks. If someone can nerd out about fire trucks I'd love to read it!

[theJanitor]

I recently listened to this podcast about this crazy firetruck

https://dorkomotive.podbean.com/e/11...h-hell-itself/

[TQP]

When I was looking for an actual cite to back up my belief that it's actually in Ohio law that you can't use fire trucks for riot control, I did a quick wiki on riot control vehicles.

Here's a couple Wikipedia had some info in English:



Both of these vehicles have run flat tires, shatterproof or maybe bulletproof windows, and can pump on the move with the operators of the nozzles enclosed in the cab.



Here's a standard US engine/pumper. The area directly behind the cab with all the dials is where the operator stands when flowing water. The only pre piped water cannon on it is directly above that, which requires another person up there to control it. Standard truck tires, standard auto glass.

Tactics wise, a good hose stream will go 100-150 feet from the nozzle. The truck isn't mobile, the crowd is. All it's good for is bad press.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

Here in Portland, the city suspended its use of tear gas at the beginning of June "unless there is a serious and immediate threat to life safety, and there is no other viable alternative for dispersal." The governor has since banned the use of tear gas state-wide except in situations that police declare to be a riot and they have to announce that gas is going to be used before it is deployed.

In a city and state where politicians (and presumably the voters that elect them) don't want tear gas used, I can't imagine them condoning the use of fire hoses.