Any new updates to this?
Any new updates to this?
Sorry, a bit late to this discussion. The performance deficits out of short barrels discussed earlier for 147g GD are recognized by Speer. The below link includes a quote from a Speer rep stating as much.
https://www.guns.com/news/2019/04/30...onsumer-market
Our agency recently switched to the 147g GD as a duty ammo. I brought this article to the attention of our FTU sergeant, who had not heard of these issues before. Following a few phone calls as I understand it, those of us who are authorized compact or down sized pistols from the duty gun were authorized to continue with the 124g +P GD, our previous loading. Personally, I would prefer to just use the 124 for everything to avoid confusion and simplify logistics, but I will settle for little victories.
Polite Professional
How does the Winchester Ranger T measure up to the HST / G2? The Winchester ammo is state bid in Illinois. Several area departments have been transitioning to it in 9mm 124 +p and 147, 40 S&W 180, and 45 ACP 230. Is this still the round used by LAPD? I don't believe in a magic bullet but do like to get the most for our department's buck. I just have to document why I would deviate from the state bid. Any verified info is appreciated.
JW
Originally Posted by Pit
"Other than Doc's testing HST outperforms Ranger T, both in expansion and penetration. Winchester has some spotty QC issues with their ammo too."
Well, that is kind of the point of this discussion, at least if we are talking about the 147gr. The testing was done on essentially a "different" cartridge and as far as I know, no one has performed appropriate tests on the new formula. According to some early posters in this thread, including Chuck Haggard, the current HST 147gr performs poorly. Perhaps even very poorly. Unfortunately, whatever the data or circumstances are that support the negative comments, they are state secrets, or something.
I suspect since 147gr is not the current hotness in duty 9mm, Doc is unlikely to test it anytime soon.
So maybe the Ranger is better now. Maybe not. No one knows and looking at earlier tests of the HST is apparently not worthwhile anymore. As far as I can tell, although Winchester has a poor QC reputation, that may be based on something from the past and no longer valid. According to a couple local agencies that issue it and in response to a question I posted here on PF, current duty-grade ammo seems to be reliable. It has apparently been approved for some federal federal contracts, so there is that, FWIW.
It is a shame, because the old 147 HST had a quality that not many other 9mm rounds could match; it performed equally well as a duty round out of a 4-5" barrel as it did in a backup of off duty gun with a 3" barrel. Apparently its weakness was that it did not do so well through windshield glass, so ATK tweaked it to do better in that situation but in the process, broke the performance in other areas. Please note that this is what I am taking away from what I have read in this and other threads and is not based on personal testing or observations.
And before anyone says it, yes, mindset and marksmanship matter more than the specific bullet, and Doc's advice to pick an "approved" round and test it, then rely on it and don't sweat the details, is good advice. But once one understands and applies the mindset and marksmanship, better performing ammo is, well, better performing, and usually costs about the same, so it is human nature to want that edge and to know how the ammo performs in testing and on the street.
So is 147 just being shot up into berms and bullet catchers across America and removed from "the list"?
Not by me...but that doesn't mean anything.
I'm still carrying it...until I feel like switching some mags over to 124 or 124 +P
There's nothing civil about this war.
I wish we could put this uncertainty over the new 147gr HST to rest. I’ve got some of both, but I used up most of my earlier vintage HST in training and function testing, saving my newer boxes for carry. Now I wonder if I did this backwards.
I still hope the newer version retains most of what made it great, perhaps only giving up some expansion for better penetration and auto glass performance, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. The old HST proved you don’t need +P performance to get effective results, and I think +P power is somewhat wasted in my G26 barrel. I like how a standard pressure 147 feels and functions in my gun.
I’m hoping I don’t need to move back to the 124gr standard pressure HST, but if reports of poor performance in the new 147gr, as reported by Chuck Haggard and others are accurate, I think Federal has some explaining to do.
Something interesting I found. It appears Federal put the smaller double cannelure on the longer heavy for caliber bullets. Look at these 180 gr pulled 40 caliber HST bullets.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/87931...odal-view-item
They also have the 165 gr HST bullets,notice they have a single cannelure because they're shorter. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/87930...odal-view-item
Also,notice the similar smaller double cannelure design of the new 135 hr Hydra Shok Deep 9mm load.
Here is a picture of the current 147 gr HST bullet.
Here's the previous design 147 gr HST.
And finally,the 124 gr HST.
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