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Thread: New Duty Load

  1. #1
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    New Duty Load

    During my career, I have worked three different agencies and been fortunate enough to meet a lot of liked minds locally and coast to coast. One the things I like to study is ballistics. Of the three cities I worked, two of them contained some of the roughest neighborhoods in my state. I've been to multiple shootings and homicides, talked to trauma doctors and coroners, and have been able to look at x-rays and pictures of autopsies. I have also been able to be part of ballistic shoots through cars, glass, and heavy clothing. When I left my last agency and came to my new home a year and half ago, I was in charge of our firearms program and was the lead instructor on a SWAT team I was on. While I was here I was able to make new friends and be part of our range staff. We have a full time armory that does the testing on weapons, ammunition, and so on.

    I came from the area my state calls The Region. When I was raised up as an officer, the king of the hill caliber was the 40. Some agencies allowed the 45 acp and a couple issued them in the area. But just like in other places in the country, the 9mm was making a come back. When I left and went to a suburb next door, they had very beat up 40 caliber Glock 22's. I had a voice and was able to get us switched to 9mm's within six months of being there. During my 4 years there, we used the 127 +P+ Ranger T's until I saw issues with their ammo one of the Top 3 PD's were having. We then switched to the 124 +P Gold Dot due to the luck that Chuck Haggard had with it and NYPD. Being on a tighter budget, the extra $100 a case for it made me look for other options. Right before I left, I ordered 124 +P HST's. The price was the around the same as the Ranger ammo and the round did well in the testing I did.

    When I came down here, we were issuing the 147 HST. I would have to say I'm not a fan and neither was the range staff due to some issues in shootings with it. When I helped out at the armory they were ready to look for a duty load. We decided to do some testing with the 127 +P+ Ranger T and the 124 +P Gold Dot. I brought some 124 +P HST's but at first they were not interested in it. After the testing they let me test it and found that it out preformed the other loads in heavy clothing and auto glass. We had Vista Outdoors come out to check our work and found that we were looking a solid performer. Currently we are switching over to the 124 +P HST and will have it fully issued by the middle of this month.

  2. #2
    Would you be able to expand on what your agency found lacking with the 147gr HST? I’ve only heard good things about that loading.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  3. #3
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz View Post
    During my 4 years there, we used the 127 +P+ Ranger T's until I saw issues with their ammo one of the Top 3 PD's were having. We then switched to the 124 +P Gold Dot due to the luck that Chuck Haggard had with it and NYPD. Being on a tighter budget, the extra $100 a case for it made me look for other options. Right before I left, I ordered 124 +P HST's. The price was the around the same as the Ranger ammo and the round did well in the testing I did.

    When I came down here, we were issuing the 147 HST. I would have to say I'm not a fan and neither was the range staff due to some issues in shootings with it. When I helped out at the armory they were ready to look for a duty load. We decided to do some testing with the 127 +P+ Ranger T and the 124 +P Gold Dot. I brought some 124 +P HST's but at first they were not interested in it. After the testing they let me test it and found that it out preformed the other loads in heavy clothing and auto glass. We had Vista Outdoors come out to check our work and found that we were looking a solid performer. Currently we are switching over to the 124 +P HST and will have it fully issued by the middle of this month.
    What issues were you seeing with the 127 +P+ Ranger?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    What issues were you seeing with the 127 +P+ Ranger?
    Winchester in general has had frequent QC issues the past few years.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz View Post
    During my career, I have worked three different agencies and been fortunate enough to meet a lot of liked minds locally and coast to coast. One the things I like to study is ballistics. Of the three cities I worked, two of them contained some of the roughest neighborhoods in my state. I've been to multiple shootings and homicides, talked to trauma doctors and coroners, and have been able to look at x-rays and pictures of autopsies. I have also been able to be part of ballistic shoots through cars, glass, and heavy clothing. When I left my last agency and came to my new home a year and half ago, I was in charge of our firearms program and was the lead instructor on a SWAT team I was on. While I was here I was able to make new friends and be part of our range staff. We have a full time armory that does the testing on weapons, ammunition, and so on.

    I came from the area my state calls The Region. When I was raised up as an officer, the king of the hill caliber was the 40. Some agencies allowed the 45 acp and a couple issued them in the area. But just like in other places in the country, the 9mm was making a come back. When I left and went to a suburb next door, they had very beat up 40 caliber Glock 22's. I had a voice and was able to get us switched to 9mm's within six months of being there. During my 4 years there, we used the 127 +P+ Ranger T's until I saw issues with their ammo one of the Top 3 PD's were having. We then switched to the 124 +P Gold Dot due to the luck that Chuck Haggard had with it and NYPD. Being on a tighter budget, the extra $100 a case for it made me look for other options. Right before I left, I ordered 124 +P HST's. The price was the around the same as the Ranger ammo and the round did well in the testing I did.

    When I came down here, we were issuing the 147 HST. I would have to say I'm not a fan and neither was the range staff due to some issues in shootings with it. When I helped out at the armory they were ready to look for a duty load. We decided to do some testing with the 127 +P+ Ranger T and the 124 +P Gold Dot. I brought some 124 +P HST's but at first they were not interested in it. After the testing they let me test it and found that it out preformed the other loads in heavy clothing and auto glass. We had Vista Outdoors come out to check our work and found that we were looking a solid performer. Currently we are switching over to the 124 +P HST and will have it fully issued by the middle of this month.
    Ok. Reliability and shot placement are my biggest concerns.

    We've issued Gold Dot in 9mm and HST in 40 for at the past 15 years or so. I don't think there would be much difference if the brands/calibers were reversed. Both have worked well in actual shootings.

    US Customs issued the 124 grain Gold Dot beginning in 1999. This remained the authorized 9mm load for ICE after the merger until the transition to the +P version around 2009/2010.

    Around 2015/2016 ICE conducted testing on 147 grain duty ammo as a possible replacement for the 124 +P GD as part of the transition from .40 to 9mm as general issue. The decision was to stick with the 124 +P GD.

  6. #6
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Winchester in general has had frequent QC issues the past few years.
    As in not going boom or inconsistent terminal performance?

    I ask as I chose the 127 and 124 Rangers as my standard SD loads and would rather not feel compelled to buy another case or two?

    I don’t want to get kilt in the streets.....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Would you be able to expand on what your agency found lacking with the 147gr HST? I’ve only heard good things about that loading.
    A few years back, I went to a Vista shoot and we were told that Federal redesigned the bullet to make it hold up better on auto glass. During that shoot I watched the 147 HST go through auto glass and lodge base first only a few inches into the gel. The original loading was known for opening to a very large diameter. The new version isn't opening as large or at all after heavy clothing. Something that seems to be happening on our streets as well. The 124 +P HST on the other hand expands to very well after heavy clothing. It also digs deeper than its big brother on auto glass shoots. We haven't had any shootings with it but there is an agency north of us that has. They told me it works as advertised.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz View Post
    A few years back, I went to a Vista shoot and we were told that Federal redesigned the bullet to make it hold up better on auto glass. During that shoot I watched the 147 HST go through auto glass and lodge base first only a few inches into the gel. The original loading was known for opening to a very large diameter. The new version isn't opening as large or at all after heavy clothing. Something that seems to be happening on our streets as well. The 124 +P HST on the other hand expands to very well after heavy clothing. It also digs deeper than its big brother on auto glass shoots. We haven't had any shootings with it but there is an agency north of us that has. They told me it works as advertised.
    Thanks for clarifying. I’ve always been interested in terminal ballistics. My employer tells me what ammo to use but I enjoy learning about observations and testing done with other loadings. We are currently issued and required to use 124gr +P Gold Dot. All the formal testing data and informal anecdotal info I’ve seen has lead me to be comfortable with it.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    As in not going boom or inconsistent terminal performance?

    I ask as I chose the 127 and 124 Rangers as my standard SD loads and would rather not feel compelled to buy another case or two?

    I don’t want to get kilt in the streets.....
    My woes with their ammo started with Bonded 5.56mm Bonded Rangers. The batch I got had about 10% of them without sealant on the primers. What was sealed looked like they gave me 2 year old a paint brush and had him apply it. The casings themselves were dented and weren't as clean and shinny. Then I took a field trip to my buddy's range, they showed me boxes of rejected ammo. Ammo with split casings, over sized casings, bullets with springs pressed into them, bullets that made it all the way through the loading process without a hollowpoint cavity punched in it. My buddy told me and I quote "The 124 Bonded Ranger works really well in shootings, that's when we can get the damn thing to go off." They actually have a 50 round case sizing die. They give an officer a live duty round on the range after they qualify them to load into a empty mag and chamber it. Then they walk out of the range and to a counter. The instructors opens a box of duty ammo and in a way that the rounds are bullet up to make sure they are all punched. The officer have to put each round into the sizing die and when they are done, the instructor checks the primers to make sure they are there and facing the correct direction. They run their hand across the loading die to make sure they are flush. They dumb the rounds onto the counter so the officer can load them into a magazine. Every round that goes out is inspected this way. They didn't have to do this when they had Speer ammunition.

    I loved the 127 +P+ Ranger T and carried it for several years. I clocked it at 1280fps out of a Glock 17, could get it locally in 50 round boxes, and worked really well when I had to put down a dog that was all teeth. But after what I saw there and dealing with Winchester, I won't go back to their product any time soon. I would go with the 124 +P HST or 124 +P Gold Dot, both companies have great QC and good street creds.

  10. #10
    My agency switched to 147gr HST from G2 a couple years ago. I’m not aware of any issues with it. It’s also recommended by @DocGKR.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....y-load-testing

    I’d be curious to know of any failures/poor performance in actual shootings.

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