Originally Posted by JTQ
"Wait...so you're saying we get our own team? Just remember, no games on Shabbat."
"Wait...so you're saying we get our own team? Just remember, no games on Shabbat."
There's nothing civil about this war.
Precisely. Although I‘ll concede a slight preference for the Cleveland Mazel Tov Cocktails, with this mascot.
Free, white, and 21 doesn't make exploitation less bad.
Let me repeat that: willing participation by the exploited does not change the forceful nature of exploitation. People who chose to degrade or injure themselves for money or other perceived rewards are being forced into that action by economic disparity.
Made more material, if my 21 year old daughter were offered $millions to become a porn star and died of an STD at 23, I would feel completely justified in murdering the producer.
It is the corruption of the consumer that creates the false justification of 'it's their choice.' It is our own desire to consume porn, violence, drugs, and prostitution that causes us to shift the blame for the injustice from the pimp to the trick -- note that we never even mention the john, he was just minding his own business on the way to church.
So week 2 through the end of the season will have the White National Anthem? Isn't the National Anthem for all Americans, the great melting pot of the world? Are we now going to have a separate National Anthem for every race and group that is in the US?
WTF is happening?
EDIT: This line is racist and I am offended
Where the white gleam of our bright star is cast.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Yeah things are pretty messed up. Being a previous fan of the local pro football team in Washington in my yute (damn those Cowbows!), I've always been surprised the team name has survived this long. I don't frankly see the point or any kind of history on an enterprise which at it's core is purely entertainment. How about the Washington Blackskins? The Washington Yellowskins? Yeah, nah, not a fan.
OTOH, I've been meaning to ask; are we still having Black Friday this fall?
When I boycotted the NFL and ESPN after their continued adoration of petulant millionaire playboy activism, I gained back a good bit of productivity in the evenings and on Sundays. They haven't given a compelling reason to go back. If it doesn't have to do with a sport, shut the fuck up and maybe I'll reconsider. I refuse to endure the Entertainment Weekly bullshit.
Since this is an NFL thread, I fixed it for you.On the other hand, Go Pack!
From Older Offspring after a discussion of coffee:
"If it doesn't come from the Kaffa province of Ethiopia, it's just hot roasted-bean juice."
In my hot rodding days, I've worked on, modified, and built cars for a few pro athletes. Mostly UFC guys given my area, but a few football players.
The saddest one, to me, was a college offensive lineman that played for a Texas university with a very prestigious program. Guy was a hell of a physical specimen, but at 21 years old he struggled to keep a train of thought, and I had to repeatedly explain to him what lift kit he'd picked for his Wrangler Rubicon.
In the middle of conversations or anytime we needed an answer from him it was 'Let me think a bit' and he'd pause and struggle to keep up with anything even remotely technical. Talking about girls or football he could passably converse but he'd contradict himself 5 minutes later. His short term memory was shot.
The only other time I've seen that kind of behavior was from guys with severe TBI's from IED's or otherwise. It was really heartbreaking to see. I hand wrote a note and left it in his console, and tooting my horn as a veteran I encouraged him to focus on building toward a good life after football and to take TBI and concussion treatment seriously in the meantime. I left my number on that note but I never heard from him again after he picked up his Wrangler.
I didn't particularly care for football before all that, but after that experience I just *really* stopped caring about football. It's hard enough talking to fellow vets, guys in their 20's and 30's that get life-altering TBI's and lose limbs and eyes or are scarred for life, and they're asking the 'for what?' questions.
Whatever the answer is for those Service Members, the answer for football players like that young man is infinitely worse to me.
So, yeah, I'd honestly celebrate the NFL's failure for what it's done to countless young men over the years. An ex-NFL player I met in the car industry joked that NFL stood for 'Not For Long'.
I used to pay attention to football. I soured on it as a prof and saw the exploitation of minority youth. They were unprepared for academic work. The regime of practice sabotaged their chance of getting a good education on the low probability of a pro career. Seeing young men telling me that they had blinding headaches and concusssion symptoms lasting for weeks, NOPE - not something I support. Did they sign up under their free will - that's a debate but still it was bad.
I also saw Anglo men from small towns who fell into that trap also. In both cases, culture was a siren song to a bad wreck. My dad told me never to trust a coach (he was in the sports business). The Chronicle of Higher Ed has reported how the promise of financial aid is very deceptive.
The kids are basically entertainers and PR stooges for funding raising. An honest coach once said that for the average college player, the benefit is to get a plaque to hang in your cubicle to impress some sucker buying a truck or insurance from you.
Are there kids who did use the scholarship to become succesful, sure. But many are exploited.
I don't particularly feel like I am treading on thin - or any ice - at all, for the following reasons :
1. In case it wasn't obvious, I don't have any personal investment in this debate. Not only am I not a Native American, I am also not a Chiefs, Braves, Indians, or Redskins fan (GO PATS). Whether or not these brands change is no skin off my nose (GO PATS).
2. My "opinion" is that some Native Americans find these brands to be racist, which is based on the fact that some Native Americans have said they find these brands to be racist. That is to say, I've basically stated a fact (some Native Americans have said they find these brands to be racist).
3. Beyond stating this fact, all I've done is present my probably cartoonish understanding of their side of the story. I've also made it clear this isn't something I expect to persuade anybody of (We'll have to agree to disagree, and so on). I could have continued to post rebuttals, but that would have been foolish, because:
4. If you (individually, or "you" as in "one") aren't receptive to hearing or engaging with this argument, it makes little sense for me to continue. Quibbling about who, or how offended, or whatever, just isn't something I find especially educational or productive and is unlikely to change anyone's mind, which is why I had stopped replying in this thread. Furthermore:
5. It's arguably impossible to convince someone that something is or is not racist. There's probably nothing you can say about the history of any of these mascots that will change my opinion (which again, is based on the stated opinions some Native Americans, including the NCAI), and probably nothing I can do to change yours. C'est la vie.
6. Finally, as previously stated, I don't think being a fan of these teams (or owner, player) and being protective of their branding implies anything whatsoever about your ("one's") views on Native Americans or on the subject of race at all. So, just in case there is any lingering doubt, nobody here should feel compelled prove to me that they/their love of one of these brands is not racist, because I never held that belief to begin with.
So, nothing personal, but I just don't see how continuing this line of conversation will continue to be helpful. My voting power - both political and financial - doesn't touch the outcome of this debate at all. Even if it were possible to 'win me over to your side,' you really wouldn't have won much at all.
I could have simply stopped replying to this thread entirely, which was my initial reaction when I realized how painfully unproductive this line of conversation was going to be. However, I don't think that would have been especially honest or respectful, and I also think it would be more helpful to illustrate why I felt this way (as I hope I have done).
In general, I am trying to avoid participating in games of rhetorical Battleship these days, as I'm sort of convinced they're what is tearing this country apart. That is to say, it seems like the majority of debates online consist of volleys traded back and forth but minimal effort on either side to thoughtfully digest the opposing argument. These are quite clearly not productive, yet seem to predominate as a format. I am guilty of participating in this myself. I realized I was falling into that trap and tried to rectify this with my most recent post, but it was not sufficient to right the boat. Given that I am ultimately just the proxy to someone else's argument, that may have been impossible to begin with.
So, to conclude this chapter of my great American novel, I appreciate that that there is nuance to this topic. As a 3rd party, that nuance is not going to be appreciated by me. If you have decided your opinion on the matter, I would encourage you to listen to and/or dialogue with the Native Americans who are offended by these brands (yes, I know it is not all of them), as that would probably a much more productive exchange for both parties than this one ever could be.
Respectfully,
Your super shitty mod
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