Looking for another opinion: Sheriff v activists re: Grossman

[jetfire]

That's going to be of limited usefulness. You can find out how it affected that individual, but unless they're a psychologist/psychiatrist they're not going to be able to explain the mental processes. When I worked with a Critical Incident Stress Debriefing team, it was made up of peers for the former, and mental health professionals for the latter. There was exactly one person on the team who checked both boxes.

I'm fine with that approach, and would also like to point out that Grossman is neither of those things. He is not a killer, and he isn't an actual trained mental health professional, which is why he is, and I quote myself here, "fucked up like a football bat."

[Joe S]

I'm fine with that approach, and would also like to point out that Grossman is neither of those things. He is not a killer, and he isn't an actual trained mental health professional, which is why he is, and I quote myself here, "fucked up like a football bat."

Not an LEO, and read just one of his books, but I found his recent podcast with Andy Stumpf of Cleared Hot illustrative. I didn't get very far into it before I switched it off ( and I generally like Stumpf and most of his guests), because Grossman was alternating between selling what he was working on now, and non-sequitors about Christianity.

[TGS]

Not an LEO, and read just one of his books, but I found his recent podcast with Andy Stumpf of Cleared Hot illustrative. I didn't get very far into it before I switched it off ( and I generally like Stumpf and most of his guests), because Grossman was alternating between selling what he was working on now, and non-sequitors about Christianity.

Yeah, what we all thought was real cheese-dick of him were his constant infomercial-style plugs to buy his shit on The Grossman Academy.

[rcbusmc24]

They brought him out to talk to all the Cpls and up in 1st Marine Regiment and the Combat Instructors at School of Infantry- West a few years ago. I guess his stuff was okay for someone who thinks being a Infantryman or a Cop is just a job, does the bare minimum to get by and then just wants to go home and pretend to be some dude....It helps get their attention somewhat,for a little while....But for anyone, like most of the members of a site such as this, it is a waste of time... Not to mention as others have said, half his presentation is like a f'ing infomercial for his stuff, anymore Grossman is most interested in selling more Grossman.

[ST911]

I've met Dave Grossman, been to his seminars, read and listened to his stuff. I would agree with the other poster(s) who thought that Dave offered a net gain for the majority of folks who attend his signature event. He is able to translate some basic concepts to people in a simple way, and in a way that has motivational and emotional appeal. Whether or not you are a fan of his sheepdog metaphor, it resonates. I've lost count of the number of burly grown men sitting in auditoriums with tears running down their faces, hearing who they were in a way that made sense for the first time. That has a value, in a place and context, for an audience, that I think is a mistake to outright dismiss. As with much else of the things we learn, take and use what is useful.

[PNWTO]

My opinion of Grossman is a lousy attempt at paraphrasing one of our own, Sean M :” Units that actually kill a lot of people don’t use Grossman’s work.”

[iWander]

He was one of my ROTC instructors and was heads and shoulders above most of the other cadre. Not a lot of combat going around in the mid 1990s. In "On Killing" he fully discloses his lack of combat experience - his exact term is "virgin talking about sex." Yeah, today we have plenty of access to face shooters to get the skinny of what the Elephant really looks like but when he wrote his first book things were different and his book was written with interviews of quite a few combat vets. Maybe an argument could be made that he hasn't updated his material to account for the recent GWOT, I don't know as I haven't read any of his recent things, but back in the 1990s he really was thought provoking and no doubt had a lot of impact on survival mindset classes that we would take with us into the GWOT. Even today I see much of his influence on the survival mindset training I have received at FLETC and from the DHS.

SLA Marshall's finding were off and no doubt introduce errors in much of Grossman's work - but that doesn't mean it is all wrong. There is no 100% solution here.

Love him or hate him - he has a right to speak.

Just my virgin opinion.

Yes. I found that regardless of the subject matter, no one has all the answers. Credible and knowledgeable instructors that are excellent at teaching the material each bring their own piece of the puzzle.

[camel]

Yes. I found that regardless of the subject matter, no one has all the answers. Credible and knowledgeable instructors that are excellent at teaching the material each bring their own piece of the puzzle.

Replying to this because I find it informative. I’m not a btdt person nor am I usually eloquent in writing I just know sometimes people like grossman are right and sometimes they are not. Matter of opinion begins on your life experience whether in academia or the tough spots. But I still hate golf

[UNM1136]

The problem with Grossman is that he isn't entirely wrong. Rather than a source you can just dismiss, you actually have to know which parts to disregard and which are important.

I've attended his one day talk that was mental preparation and Beslan. I think it was a net positive.

I did this one (Bulletproof Mind?). I read his books when they were relevent. That was a long, long time ago I found his presentations good for the masses who pay lip service to training, and if the sheepdog imagery helps, then good for them. Pat Rogers referred to meat eaters. Like all training a capable practitioner needs to be able to separate the good stuff from the fluff, rather than just chug the koolaid. Todd G met me on the slide release bandwagon when everyone else was screaming "gross motor skills" and insisting that anything other than overhand push/pull would cause your pistol to spontaneously become a limp, flesh toned marital aid when you need it to be a ballistic projector. My supervisor is still a dyed in the wool Weaver and gross motor skills kind of guy. I am required to know how to teach all that stuff, but have had great success giving students other options.

I see some of his influence in the ALERRT stuff I teach, and he is credited, but it has morphed considerably. The books given away at each class are Howe's, not Grossman's. I actually still use my notes from his class when I prep Civilian Response to Active Shooter Events classes. He had some really solid ideas for school and church security programs that I still use. Those guys already think they are sheepdogs.

I am not flat out Anti-Grossman, and I learned a good bit from him. But training dollars being what they are, I would spend money on others.

Just my $0.02.

pat