Who are these guys in Provo?

[blues]

I know, Tony "Pro" Provenzano's enforcers...

The Provozano Gang...

[Warped Mindless]

Whoever they are, they seem fairly squared away.
I wonder who equipped them, trained them.
Awful lot of gear for private purchase.

Im still waiting for some group to piss off a Native American tibe that has casino money. You think those guys are well armed just wait until you see what a group financed by a casino looks like.

Just dont call them a militia because they HATE that term.

[JodyH]

Im still waiting for some group to piss off a Native American tibe that has casino money. You think those guys are well armed just wait until you see what a group financed by a casino looks like.

Just dont call them a militia because they HATE that term.

And many tribes have a LOT of distinguished combat veterans among their members.

[Lost River]

Good Morning Friends.


So I will put out a bit of intel here in regards to our LDS neighbors.

I might have some buddies who wear wear the undergarments..

BTW, there was a name change and Mormon is gone.

I have grown up with and lived among the LDS my entire life, so none of this is really earth shattering, and in fact my family history has been intertwined with the LDS church history since my descendants were among the pioneers who founded Utah. In fact there is a building in SLC named after one.

Anyways, the LDS church is very serious about security and has their own "tactical training center" in SLC. While the church sent out confidentiality notices about it, it is hard to keep things like that a secret. BTW, the LDS church often sends of confidentiality notices about things that might be viewed as controversial ( they have an image to uphold, like any other organization).

The name was softened in this article:
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/...-planning-new/

It has 12 handgun and 12 rifle lanes and apparently a use of force simulator.

They have what is essentially their own "swat" team. Remember the 19th Special Forces Group (Airborne) is headquartered at Camp Williams, Utah, so lots of guys available for training resources.

Yes, there is very strong presence of LDS in federal government. This is not accidental. Church Elders are good at long term planning.

Language skills and clean backgrounds are significant for any federal recruiter and the LDS have that in the bag.


Another thing, there is very little separation of church and state in Utah, when you scratch beneath the surface, in spite of what some might think.

In fact, I have been told face to face from (more than one) very reliable LE source that church security has state police arrest powers.

Heck, just look at the patch of the Utah HWY patrol. It is the Mormon Beehive.

"The hive and honey bees form our communal coat of arms"

In fact, Utah is called "The Beehive State".


The Book of Ether in The Book of Mormon (books within books) tells the story of the Jaredites, a tribe that lived at the time of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament. According to The Book of Mormon, the Jaredites made a miraculous 344-day voyage across the ocean to North America. They brought with them the “deseret” which means “honey bee” in the nomenclature of The Book of Mormon.

The State of the Hive — When Brigham Young and the Latter-day Saints arrived in Salt Lake Valley in July of 1847, Young chose the name “Deseret” for their new home, and the beehive as its emblem, symbolizing the kind of cooperative work that would be required to make the desert bloom. Images of bees and beehives—the traditional skep, five of which the Mormons brought with them on their trek—were used in much early church construction embellishments. Notably, on the interior and exterior of the Salt Lake Temple and, famously, on Brigham Young’s own Beehive House, which is crowned with a carved bee skep. Newell posts, doorknobs, windows and all bore the emblem of a beehive.



Here are a couple of links to educate yourself.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/s...aint-tradition

http://www.byhigh.org/History/Seal/SealCrest.html





When powerful organizations have people in all levels of government, do inappropriate things happen?

Yes of course.

I have had it happen.

Is this any different than other places? Not really.

Short story. Many years back. I was working an outlaw biker case involving lots of narcotics. The primary players got adjudicated. One of the lesser players was up for trial in a eastern Idaho county (heavy LDS). I show up for trial. Problem is I am the only guy there. When I inquire, the Sheriff's secretary dismisses me, telling me that it has been handled by "Church Court".

I start raising hell about this on the state level, and was pulled to the side and in an unofficial manner told to STFU. Me being me, and hard headed, I went further up the food chain. I was lucky to walk away with my job.

Was it appropriate, no.

But that is life.

Take the good with the bad.

I could discuss numerous grossly inappropriate things/crimes that were covered up by church/LE, but this is not a LDS bashing post, and it would not be any different than what the Catholic church has done, or other religions, so there is nothing to gain from doing so.



They will protect and promote their own first.

Welcome to the real world.



Do the Mormons have the equivalent of "militias"? Yes.

Should anyone be concerned, Not hardly, unless you are trying to rob a neighbors 2 year supply of food.

BTW, if you want to talk about an organization that knows about being prepared, it is the LDS.

Just visit https://providentliving.churchofjesu....org/?lang=eng


This is a great resource for setting up a practical pantry.


They have emergency preparedness worksheets, gardening info, food storage plans, you name it.


Anyways, Yeah, the LDS take church security, and being armed pretty seriously. On a local level, my neighborhood is conservatively 85% LDS. It is one of the quietest neighborhoods around. There are much worse neighbors to have that is for sure. The only time it is dangerous is 15 minutes before church, and on the highway on Conference weekend.

It would seem reasonable that the guys in the picture at the start of the thread are there to protect members of their church and community.

So in all the LDS have some good parts and some bad, like any organization.

No big deal.



CHEERS!

[wvincent]

@Lost River, thank you for the enlightening post.

At the risk of thread derail, here's what really grates me, "In fact, I have been told face to face from (more than one) very reliable LE source that church security has state police arrest powers."

A religious entity with the power of arrest, backed by the power of the State? Just double f*ck no. I prefer that religion and the State stay quite separate, thank you.

[JodyH]

I knew a LDS missionary to Africa that received some pretty hardcore training from the church in preparation.
A lot of firearms, unarmed, survival, E&E, etc.. He also had a law enforcement commission in the country he was a missionary to that allowed him to own and carry firearms.

[MichaelD]

For what it's worth, I'm a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (OK, technically since baptism and confirmation at age 8), and this is the first time I've heard most of the things in Lost River's post. Not saying it isn't true, but I'd be highly surprised by it. I do know Church security takes their job VERY seriously, and can confirm that there are armed security members at LDS General Conference and at Temple Square. I don't think they have any more arrest powers than does any other private security organization, though.

[revchuck38]

@Lost River, thank you for the enlightening post.

At the risk of thread derail, here's what really grates me, "In fact, I have been told face to face from (more than one) very reliable LE source that church security has state police arrest powers."

A religious entity with the power of arrest, backed by the power of the State? Just double f*ck no. I prefer that religion and the State stay quite separate, thank you.

If they had reserve commissions as LEO, they'd have arrest powers when serving as such. They wouldn't be working under their Church's authority. Even when working a church security detail, they could arrest people for breaking civil law (i.e., assault in church). Assuming they went through Utah's POST training, responding officers would have somewhat of a warm fuzzy knowing that the security folks have at least some level of training in an active shooter situation. I don't see it as a church having state-backed arrest powers.

[blues]

"Who is this person that has an issue with the church enforcing the rules? Bring him to me so we can...chat."

[Lost River]

@Lost River, thank you for the enlightening post.

At the risk of thread derail, here's what really grates me, "In fact, I have been told face to face from (more than one) very reliable LE source that church security has state police arrest powers."

A religious entity with the power of arrest, backed by the power of the State? Just double f*ck no. I prefer that religion and the State stay quite separate, thank you.

They have more power than you might possibly imagine.


In 2020 it managed about $100 billion in assets according to Ensign Peak Advisors. That is 5x the annual budget of the state of Utah.

And that is just the cards they are putting on the table.

Their presence in Idaho state and local LE is also rather substantial as I explained in my example above.

The world is not fair. Fair is where the Carnies hang out and sell meth to kids.

Over on another forum I frequent a person was asking about a small town in southern Utah and things to do, as they had a job opportunity. It was suggested that they "have a short chat with the local Bishop and ask to be included in social activities".

Not go to city hall, county seat, etc,

but straight to the boss.

That is life in Utah, Idaho, large parts of Wyoming and Montana.

Good bad or indifferent. That is simply life in a large part of the west.