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Thread: Who do we like for masks?

  1. #51
    Member 98z28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tod-13 View Post
    Actually, there is a big difference.

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...sciadv.abd3083


    https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...abd3083_SM.pdf
    Supplementary figure S5 illustrates how fleece produces more smaller particles than no mask -- with smaller particles staying airborne longer -- making smaller particles stay a threat longer.

    So, statistically, the mean of the fleece test is 10% higher with a larger standard deviation. (Notice, the boxplot is on a log scale.) And there are more particles, and smaller particles, which remain airborne, and a transmission threat, longer.
    Unless I am missing it, I don't see the actual data anywhere in the paper or supplementary material. Just plots. So we have to eyeball the mean and standard deviation and guess at whether the differences are statistically significant. Given the higher standard deviation in droplet count with the fleece (compared to no mask), it's possible that there is not a statistically significant difference between the two means. I don't think that's an nefarious omission on the part of the authors. They state that the goal was to present a low-cost method for testing mask effectiveness, not to test the effectiveness of the included masks.

    "We have demonstrated a simple optical measurement method to evaluate the efficacy of masks to reduce the transmission of respiratory droplets during regular speech."

    "Again, we want to note that the mask tests performed here (one speaker for all masks and four speakers for selected masks) should serve only as a demonstration. Inter-subject variations are to be expected, for example due to difference in physiology, mask fit, head position, speech pattern, and such."

    "In summary, our measurements provide a quick and cost-effective way to estimate the efficacy of masks for retaining droplets emitted during speech for droplet sizes larger than 0.5 μm. Our proof-of-principle experiments only involved a small number of speakers, but our setup can serve as a base for future studies with a larger cohort of speakers and checks of mask performance under a variety of conditions that affect the droplet emission rate, like different speakers, volume of speech (15), speech patterns (16), and other effects. This method can also test masks under other conditions, like coughing or sneezing. Improvements to the setup can increase sensitivity, yet testing efficiency during regular breathing likely will require complementing measurements with a conventional particle sizer."

    As an interesting point, I noticed that Speaker 4 had a lower droplet count with the bandanna than with the surgical mask (Figure S4). They don't show the data broken down by speaker for the fleece covering, so it's possible that two or three of the speakers had much larger droplet counts and pushed the mean upwards, just as with the bandanna. That's why we like to work with larger samples, which this study does not have, by design.

    That said, I find it interesting that the fleece covering appears to produce more and smaller droplets over the average of these four speakers. I'm curious if that would play out over a larger sample of individuals. Anecdotally, I find it much easier to breath with a neck gaiter than a cotton mask, so the results appeal to my intuition. In fact, I've put my neck gaiters up and switched back to cotton and surgical masks until we get more data. Gio's right, though. We are (or at least I am) relaying on intuition to say that more and smaller droplets are necessarily a bad thing. What if that actually makes it easier for UV to kill the virus in the droplets, for example? This is way outside my lane, so those studies may well exist. It's just worth noting that we have not seen that evidence in this discussion. We are taking it as a given.

    Another limitation the authors note is that using a cell phone camera limits the size of the droplets they can detect. Let's assume for a moment that more and smaller droplets are in fact a bad thing in that they increase the likely hood of transmitting the virus. What if the other masks produce even more and smaller droplets compared to the fleece precisely because of the increased density of the material? We wouldn't know using the methods in this study. I realize that that's kind of out there. I'm just pointing out the authors' admitted limitations of the study.

    /rant off. Back to actually talking about mask comfort, because I still haven't found anything other than a neck gaiter that I can tolerate wearing for hours on end...

  2. #52
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    I have been wearing this one, and people give me the strangest look.

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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by 98z28 View Post
    Unless I am missing it, I don't see the actual data anywhere in the paper or supplementary material. Just plots. So we have to eyeball the mean and standard deviation and guess at whether the differences are statistically significant.
    They give the medians I quoted in the text of paper.
    The neck fleece has a larger transmission (110%, see Fig. 3 (A)) than the control trial.
    At the end of the paper is a link for the movies. https://research.repository.duke.edu...x287?locale=en

    Wish they were doing more "reproducibility" like Dr Keith Baggerly promoted, and included the code, scripts, and data files.

  4. #54
    Member 98z28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tod-13 View Post
    They give the medians I quoted in the text of paper.


    At the end of the paper is a link for the movies. https://research.repository.duke.edu...x287?locale=en

    Wish they were doing more "reproducibility" like Dr Keith Baggerly promoted, and included the code, scripts, and data files.
    Agreed. Excluding that information would raise eyebrows in my world (finance). I shouldn't have to go back and reproduce your data files from the videos. Why do you want me to work harder to see your raw data? Why are you presenting the breakdown for certain face coverings and only plots/medians for the rest? What are you hoping I don't see?

    But...I think it makes sense for what they say they are up to. They didn't present the results as evidence on the effectiveness of different face coverings, though that is how the media has presented it. Even there I might (almost) forgive the media because the authors used the differences they did find to highlight the importance of their work (i.e. It appears that some face coverings are less effective than wearing nothing, so the world needs the methodology presented in the paper to conduct more tests).

    They are presenting an inexpensive testing methodology that can be used in more rigorous experiments to gather evidence on the effectiveness of different face coverings. The point is the method, not the results.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by JCS View Post
    Picked up an outdoor research mask and have been liking it much better than a cloth one I had been using. If I’m talking a lot I do have to adjust it but I’m not sure that’s avoidable with any mask. It takes a filter as well which is a pretty cool feature. I tried a mystery ranch street mask but it was huuuge. I’d like to try their other one still.
    Follow up after wearing for awhile. If you want to wear the filter it does fall out and move around pretty easily. It gets kind of annoying if you take your mask off and on a lot. I was going to wear it without the filter but it's pretty thin and you can see light through it without the filter.

    After seeing this article https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-...th-face-masks/ I ordered one of the halo masks. Yes it is expensive but I prefer it to the outdoor research mask. I've worn it for long periods of times and I can take it off and on quickly and don't have to mess with the filter. The filter pocket is contained and it lasts 200 hrs.

    Considering how much I am going to be required to wear a mask in the future it's worth the investment.
    "Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils

  6. #56
    For anyone using already, I just got an email: Outdoor Research has their replacement filters back in stock for $20 for a pack of 25.

  7. #57
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    Has anyone used the Outdoor Research one with ear protection? I am wondering if you can work the adjusters around so it is not inside the ear cup.
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

  8. #58
    If you want to match your tie and/or pocket square.....

    https://www.beautiesltd.com/collections/face-coverings

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by JCS View Post
    Follow up after wearing for awhile. If you want to wear the filter it does fall out and move around pretty easily. It gets kind of annoying if you take your mask off and on a lot. I was going to wear it without the filter but it's pretty thin and you can see light through it without the filter.

    After seeing this article https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-...th-face-masks/ I ordered one of the halo masks. Yes it is expensive but I prefer it to the outdoor research mask. I've worn it for long periods of times and I can take it off and on quickly and don't have to mess with the filter. The filter pocket is contained and it lasts 200 hrs.

    Considering how much I am going to be required to wear a mask in the future it's worth the investment.
    I'm going to try one of the Halo masks.
    #RESIST

  10. #60
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    CT
    Quote Originally Posted by JCS View Post
    Follow up after wearing for awhile. If you want to wear the filter it does fall out and move around pretty easily. It gets kind of annoying if you take your mask off and on a lot. I was going to wear it without the filter but it's pretty thin and you can see light through it without the filter.

    After seeing this article https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-...th-face-masks/ I ordered one of the halo masks. Yes it is expensive but I prefer it to the outdoor research mask. I've worn it for long periods of times and I can take it off and on quickly and don't have to mess with the filter. The filter pocket is contained and it lasts 200 hrs.

    Considering how much I am going to be required to wear a mask in the future it's worth the investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I'm going to try one of the Halo masks.
    I've had the same experience as JCS with the OR mask. It's pretty comfortable, and fits reasonably but the filter does shift and it's inconvenient if I have to wear it for long or if I talk more than a little because I find I have to adjust it a lot to keep it from slipping off my nose. I'd be interested in the long-term experience with the Halo mask and if anybody has tried both the Halo and the RZ, I'd be interested to hear how you think they compare.

    Thanks

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