How to get a Reliable Hard Use 1911?

[Sawyer]

I think this whole question is overdone. Modern quality 1911’s built by reputable companies just don’t really have reliability issues anymore when properly maintained. I have several but the four I’ve shot the most over the past 5 years or so are a Wilson CQB, a Les Baer CC, a Springfield MC Operator, and a Springfield Long Beach Operator. The LB Operator is my work/do it all gun. It’s been through classes, bad weather exposure, a bunch of stuff. All guns are run primarily with Wilson ETM mags but an occasional Mecgar will slip in. Training Ammo is pretty much American Eagle 230 grain and operational is Federal 230 grain HST. None of the four of them have ever failed to go through their full functional cycle, with the exception of a couple failures to lock back that were traced back to an aging Wilson 47D that slipped into the rotation. I don’t know what better performance I could expect and aim certainly not my own armored.

[Bucky]

Dude...I know you ain’t hating on cardigans...

No one did it better than this.

[Jason Burton]

In fairness I haven't read through this entire thread so if I’m repeating something already posted consider this a simple “+1”... or whatever the current vernacular is.

Reliability in a 1911 is actually pretty simple. Get a gun built correctly feed it in spec ammo out of quality magazines and it will work as well as anything else... no, really... it will. However, it takes more than just being assembled together from various bins of parts on an assembly line that is trying to meet a per/hour production quota. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done nor is that an indictment of assembly line production, but trying to do 1911 production in mass and at/to a price point can often times preclude the detail and time it takes to check and insure some aspects of the 1911 that need to be right. Not good, not bad, just is.

I have personally seen production and semi-custom 1911s at various price points that needed simple corrections to be at their optimal performance. Does that mean the platform is flawed, old, archaic, no longer viable, or not as good as “modern designs” (don’t even get me started on that descriptive phrase)? Nope... it just means it needs a knowledgable (or trained?) hand to put the gun together correctly and the available time to do it.

Also, part of the problem is managing expectations with reality... many consumers want greatness in the 1911 platform for the price of a Glock, not possible. And, in reality, trying to make a comparison of a $500 1911 to a $500 Glock is retarded; the guns are two different animals... not good, not bad, just is. There is only so much time and effort gun companies can invest in a $750-$800 1911 and still have the product be profitable. Thus we have 1911s at many different price points and one should generally assume that more expensive 1911 has two things going for it: better parts and more time insuring those parts work together correctly.

And while I’m at it let me just say this clearly: not all 1911 experience and “experts” are equal. I’ve been doing this professionally (as in I do this to feed my family) for 15 years now and I have been tinkering with the 1911 platform for at least 5 years before that... I both laugh and cringe at the things I did not once know or know how to do. So, if your in the market for a truly custom 1911 it behooves you to find a builder who has the knowledge, experience, and tools/equipment to do things the right way and/or fix things that aren’t right.

So to your core question of “what does it take to get a stone-cold reliable (at least 2k MRBS) 1911 for serious use these days?” The answer is it takes time... and time will always equate to money. My recommendation for all 1911 buyers is to first define your price point. From there it is easy to get recommendations within that price on what are good examples of 1911s to start with. Expectations have to be managed based on price... you should expect excellence out of a bespoke 1911 built by one man but not so much out of a $800 production gun. Consequently there will be a significant price difference and lead time between the two.

Lastly... and consider this some anecdotal personal experience... the gun pictured below was built by me around 2011. I did no frame and slide fitting on the gun but focused on building every other aspect of the pistol. I retired the gun at one point for a few years but, as I got more involved in IDPA, I began shooting the gun again. Between November of 2017 and April of 2019 I shot the gun pretty much exclusively putting between 13K and 14K round of 230gr hardball through the gun with no stoppages and no cleaning or disassembly. I only added oil as needed. In September of 2019 I discovered both the frame and slide were cracked (I actually new the frame was even before that) and in March of this year the original extractor finally gave out at over 50K rounds. Needless to say the gun works, is stupid accurate, and easy to shoot... but unfortunately it cost a bit more than a Glock.

[SW CQB 45]

Jason,

I am just a shooter and carry one in my duty rig.

Question

if you would have replaced the recoil spring at recommended round count intervals, do you think the pistol would have still cracked ?(based on the 13K in the less than 2 year time period)

thanks for the info

[JohnK]

Jason,

I am just a shooter and carry one in my duty rig.

Question

if you would have replaced the recoil spring at recommended round count intervals, do you think the pistol would have still cracked ?(based on the 13K in the less than 2 year time period)

thanks for the info

I'm not speaking for him but I could swear that I read somewhere that he was changing the recoil springs at normal service intervals. Somewhere between 2500-5K? Maybe im wrong.

I am just a shooter too and I go somewhere between 3-5,000 depending on how much dry fire I am doing. And I have started using shok-buffs in my training guns, definitely not in my carry gun(s)

[Jason Burton]

Question

if you would have replaced the recoil spring at recommended round count intervals, do you think the pistol would have still cracked ?(based on the 13K in the less than 2 year time period)

thanks for the info

Basically yes... I think the recoil spring of a proper weight can or might help to mitigate undue wear to include preventing cracks from occurring earlier than one might expect. However, I think a bigger variable to consider is square corners where there is impact force vs. radiused corners. Square corners present stress risers and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that had more to do with this gun cracking where it did and when it did. I've had other frames crack at lower round counts even with very diligent spring changes and I've seen other guns go longer with less than optimal spring maintenance... all shooting full power ammo.

It should be noted that during the time frame I mentioned in my previous post I was using a 18.5# recoil spring and a 23# mainspring. One of the benefits of the 18.5# recoil spring is that tend to last longer; basically meaning that at a high round count they still measure closer to the originally spec'd recoil spring weight of 16#.

I currently still shoot this gun a lot and the cracks have had no bearing on the gun working and being accurate. The only changes made are that I've recently gone back to using a 16# recoil spring and I installed a new Bar-Sto barrel about 6000 rounds ago.

[JonInWA]

I think this whole question is overdone. Modern quality 1911’s built by reputable companies just don’t really have reliability issues anymore when properly maintained. I have several but the four I’ve shot the most over the past 5 years or so are a Wilson CQB, a Les Baer CC, a Springfield MC Operator, and a Springfield Long Beach Operator. The LB Operator is my work/do it all gun. It’s been through classes, bad weather exposure, a bunch of stuff. All guns are run primarily with Wilson ETM mags but an occasional Mecgar will slip in. Training Ammo is pretty much American Eagle 230 grain and operational is Federal 230 grain HST. None of the four of them have ever failed to go through their full functional cycle, with the exception of a couple failures to lock back that were traced back to an aging Wilson 47D that slipped into the rotation. I don’t know what better performance I could expect and aim certainly not my own armored.

I'll buy what you are saying with a 5" bushing barrel Government 1911; in my experience, Commanders (in my case, exclusively 4.25 bushing barrelled) can be, shall we say, a bit of drama queen divas, with more tuning required-with tuning encompassing the gun intrinsically, the magazines, and the magazine components (followers, springs).

I think that the skill and abilities, and concurrent lack of turnover of a company's personnnel is an absolutely critical part of them being capable of turning our consistantly good 1911s. Management/owner vision, in terms of both the guns themselves and their company orientation and ethos are equally critical. Vendor component quality concurrently needs to be of intrinsic consistant high quality both materially and dimensionally-this factor is often ignorted because manufacturers tend to be pretty close-lipped about their external sourcings, but I don't think there's a single 1911 manufacturer who makes every component in-house-and I've long suspected that many are more assemblers than manufacturers...

Best, Jon

[RevolverRob]

Man, Jason Burton sums it up so well:

...it just means it needs a knowledgable (or trained?) hand to put the gun together correctly and the available time to do it.

Ultimately, this has been my experience with the 1911. If you can learn to do it correctly yourself, you can correct many of the flaws found in 'production' guns, with hand tools and time. However, if you do not have the time or inclination to learn to do it correctly, you should plan to write a check to someone who has done these things.

If you're going to write a check and make sure it's done right. You want to start with a SACs, Nighthawk, or Alchemy - each of those places have smiths with the requisite time and knowledge it takes to build a high quality 1911.

[SW CQB 45]

Basically yes... I think the recoil spring of a proper weight can or might help to mitigate undue wear to include preventing cracks from occurring earlier than one might expect. However, I think a bigger variable to consider is square corners where there is impact force vs. radiused corners. Square corners present stress risers and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that had more to do with this gun cracking where it did and when it did. I've had other frames crack at lower round counts even with very diligent spring changes and I've seen other guns go longer with less than optimal spring maintenance... all shooting full power ammo.

It should be noted that during the time frame I mentioned in my previous post I was using a 18.5# recoil spring and a 23# mainspring. One of the benefits of the 18.5# recoil spring is that tend to last longer; basically meaning that at a high round count they still measure closer to the originally spec'd recoil spring weight of 16#.

I currently still shoot this gun a lot and the cracks have had no bearing on the gun working and being accurate. The only changes made are that I've recently gone back to using a 16# recoil spring and I installed a new Bar-Sto barrel about 6000 rounds ago.

thanks Jason, I know you are a busy man and appreciate the responses.

Do you think high round count Operator frames with the beefier dust cover area is less prone to cracking? (the beefier part goes further back closer to the slide stop area)

JohnK..... I too am a buff user on training sessions.



Also, I have been hard on my body through the years, wrenching in the oilfield, backyard mechanic, heavy working out and I developed serious wrist pain a couple of years ago when shooting a 1911 230 FMJ with 18.5 recoil spring. It was suggested to go back to 16 lbs recoil spring and change it more often as it might reduce the snap of the slide going back into battery. It actually worked and while I feel some pain in my right wrist, I am good past 500 rounds.

Was there a reason you went back to 16 lbs recoil spring with this piece?

thanks in advance

[Jason Burton]

Do you think high round count Operator frames with the beefier dust cover area is less prone to cracking? (the beefier part goes further back closer to the slide stop area)

Yes I do.

Was there a reason you went back to 16 lbs recoil spring with this piece?

The gun shoots flatter for me... and... well... I wanna' go fast...