Originally Posted by GJM
Running 2000 rounds of duty ammo through a correctly set up gun is chump change.
It's interesting you mention H&K pistols, because they actually have a good bit in common with 1911s. Namely that they're tremendously accurate, have something of a cult following among the cognoscenti, and for all intents and purposes, will do nothing that can't be done by a cheaper gun.
(Runs/hides)
[emoji6]
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I haven't seen a great deal of 1911 reliability testing data. The most recent - and quite likely the last - were the 2011 Marine Corps CQBP trials. Honestly, they were not confidence inspiring.
In my own experience, polymer guns have it all over the 1911 in a 2,000 round challenge. Personally, I've accepted that a 1911 requires more frequent maintenance than a Glock (or HK) to remain dependable.
5.3 ENDURANCE TEST
5.3.1 System Reliability
This test was conducted to determine the reliability of the UUTs at standard ambient temperature (77 ± 18∞F), as well as cold (-25∞F) and hot (120∞F). New bid samples were used for this
test. This test was conducted on UUTs 11B11, 11B12, 11B14, and 11B15. Originally, 11B13 started this test, but it experienced an unusual failure early on which led to the pistol being unserviceable (see below for more details). It was removed from this test, and 11B15 took its place. A total of 48,000 rounds (12,000 per UUT) were fired for this test for record. This test
was scheduled for 60,000 rounds total, but cracked slides led to an early finish to the test. See results in 5.3.1.2 for more information.
5.3.1.1 Test Procedure
Three shooters rotated through the UUTs firing the following:
∑ 5,000 rounds at standard ambient (77 ± 18∞F)
∑ 1,000 rounds at -25∞F
∑ 3,000 rounds at 120∞F, and
∑ 3,000 additional rounds at standard ambient (77 ± 18∞F)
Shooting was conducted at a rate of 2-3 magazines per minute, and cleaning of the UUTs was performed every 300 rounds. Each UUT was assigned 22 magazines for this test, and the 22 magazines were loaded twice during each 300 round firing cycle. UUTs were conditioned at
the hot and cold temperatures for a minimum of 3 hours prior to firing, and then reconditioned
if removed from the environment (e.g. for cleaning during cold firing). AN/PEQ-6A Integrated Laser Light Pointers were mounted to the UUTs 50% of the time. They were mounted/removed at every cleaning cycle. Trigger pull and dispersion were measured every 3,000 rounds (see 5.3.2 and 5.3.3), and Non-Destructive Testing was performed prior to firing and after 6,000 rounds fired (see 5.3.4).
5.3.1.2 Results
UUT 11B13 only fired 600 rounds before it became unserviceable due to its recoil spring
binding with something internally and not allowing the slide to cycle. The spring binding during operation of the UUT caused the recoil spring to receive a significant permanent bend in it (see Figure 3). This also caused the recoil spring guide to become damaged to the point of being unusable (see Figure 4). No spare recoil spring guides were provided by Colt, so a decision was made to remove 11B13 from this test and to replace it with 11B15. The rounds fired from UUT 11B13 are not included in the results of this test.
UUTs 11B11, 11B12, 11B14, and 11B15 each fired 12,000 rounds before being deadlined due to visible safety-critical cracks found in the slides (see Figure 5 through Figure 9). Each slide had cracks in the same location, but they varied in size.
The reliability results presented here are preliminary and subject to failure scoring conducted by the source selection evaluation board. Detailed information on all reliability failures and preliminary scoring by the test activity is provided in Appendix A: Reliability Test Data. The numbers presented in the tables below are based on this preliminary scoring.
Table 1. Total Failures
Class I Class II Class III
84 2 18
Table 2. Class I Failures by Type SLR FEJ FFD FTC
15 1 60 8
SLR = Slide Locked to the Rear
FEJ = Failure to Eject
FFD = Failure to Feed
FTC = Failure to Chamber
Table 3. Class I Failures by UUT
11B11 11B12 11B14 11B15
3 15 26 40
Below is a summary of broken or cracked components produced as a result of this reliability test: ∑ 6 broken slide stops
5 broken ejectors (legs sheared)
4 cracked slides
3 broken thumb safeties
2 broken front sights
1 cracked frame at the accessory rail
1 broken extractor
1 broken plunger tube (legs sheared)
5.3.1.3 Test Observations
The following are some test observations made during the reliability test effort.
1) Roughly 10 times more Class I failures were experienced when no accessory was mounted to the UUTs vs. when the AN/PEQ-6As were mounted.
2) Operators noted that the recoil from the UUTs was noticeably sharper and/or heavier than the recoil from the current MEU(SOC) .45 pistol. Most attributed this to a weak recoil
spring.
3) There were a few instances of UUTs with high Class I failure rates that were corrected by replacing the recoil spring with a new one (UUTs 11B14 and 11B15).
4) After firing 150 rounds, the recoil springs reduced in length from 7.32 inches to 6.46 inches. After 450 rounds, the recoil springs measured approximately 6.38 inches in
length. After 4,500 rounds, the recoil springs measured approximately 5.94 inches in
length.
5) On multiple occasions when replacing the recoil spring with a new one, the new recoil spring would kink and bind the slide so that it would not cycle (similar to what occurred
with UUT 11B13). Pulling out the new spring would reveal that it had received a
permanent bend as a result of this binding (see Figure 10). Depending on the severity
of the set in the spring, some of the ìnewî recoil springs had to be replaced again
without ever firing a round so that the slide could move without binding. The assembly procedure used by the personnel replacing the recoil springs was verified to be as
specified in Coltís provided Armorerís manual, so this was not attributed to operator
error.
6) After a few thousand rounds through each UUT, grip screws began to loosen regularly and required retightening. In addition, three grip screw bushings had stripped out
completely from the receiver frame by the time the UUTs had completed their 12,000
rounds fired.
7) Eighteen AN/PEQ-6As broke during this test. The UUTs with the highest Class I failure rates also tended to have the highest rates for breaking AN/PEQ-6As.
8) The UUTs with the highest Class I failure rates had the most severe slide cracks.
9) UUT 11B12 had a crack which developed in the receiver at the accessory rail (see Figure 11). This crack was discovered after firing 9,000 rounds. The crack was determined not
to be safety critical at its current length, so firing continued with this UUT.
10) Recoil spring plugs on three of the UUTs were cracked by 12,000 rounds (see Figure 12 through Figure 14). The cracks had no apparent effect on the performance of the UUTs
to this point.
11) Magazines were filled 80 times each during this test, and none were replaced due to unserviceability.
"When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."
Yeah, you have fun defining those best in class.
It'll be 50+ pages, first moved to the Romper Room, and then ending as a locked thread.
"And for a regular dude I’m maybe okay...but what I learned is if there’s a door, I’m going out it not in it"-Duke
"Just because a girl sleeps with her brother doesn't mean she's easy..."-Blues
This old thread contains some info on hard-use 1911s including some comments from a SME who knows some stuff. The thread contains some links to another forum on which the same SME posted a bunch of info and pictures of a hard-use M45A1 Marine pistol. The SME is not a 1911 or Colt fanboy, just a Marine who has put the 1911 through hard use and recorded some of the results.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ighlight=m45a1
There is also a Springfield Operator at over 140K through the gun and a Colt government with over 200K through it with semi-regular updates on M4Carbine.net that Ned Christiansen services at somewhat regular intervals - and by services, it seems that he sees it once or twice per year to see if anything needs to be touched up.
I own 2 1911s government models, a SA loaded and a DW A2. Both have been 100% reliable. But I don't "hard use" them.....I shoot them, clean them and repeat another day. The thing about the 1911, for me, is they are not a plug and play platform. Fitting parts replacement parts takes knowledge of how the parts interact with each other. But as others have said, a great single-action trigger just pulls you into the platform. My DW A2 trigger pull is so crisp and light that I don't even remotely feel the need to modify it. The SA trigger pull is excellent for self-defense carry. It's a bit heavier than the DW, but breaks clean with no sight picture upset as I pull the trigger.
Here is what always is in the back of my mind when talking 1911s. We all read about how "my 1911" works with this part and not that part......thinking mags and extractor here, but not exclusively. We monkey with springs which affect reliability. We talk about lug engagement, ejector length/angle, and the fitment of barrel feet. I say all this from the aspect of how parts interact and their effect on reliability. Plus lots of different firearm manufacturers make the 1911.....and their expertise in the manufacture of the pistol with quality parts and assembly can vary.
So if I was going to pick a .45 acp pistol to use for self-defense it would probably be my S&W full-size M&P 2.0. But the DW A2 has been a fine performer and it would be the one to send to a gunsmith for a once over and any reliability upgrades.
To add further, my friend USMC0802 has a Baer TRS that has around 39,000 through it. And has a Baer Custom Carry with around 15K through it and my other friend (his brother) has a UTC with 13K through his. Not to be a wiseass, but sometimes people just get these guns and don't worry about hard use specifically... And just use them hard. And if something breaks, they just send whatever they need to for a replacement part. No big deal. I do that same. That is the benefit of having multiples.
High round count 1911s don't do much for me. Does anyone doubt that the all-steel 1911 pistol is durable? How many times did PWS rebuild those MEUSOC M45 frames?
A 1911 with quality small parts is going to last a long time. Whether it runs well? Different question entirely.
I think Larry Vickers sums it up nicely.
How do I know if a 1911 is the right choice for me?
That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If, however, you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers, then don’t get a 1911 –- use a Glock. If you want a very nice 1911 that runs out of the box, get a Wilson Combat.
"When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."
Well...
Except you can be reasonably sure the HK is going to work and put the bullets where you want - where I'm not sure you can reasonably say that about a Gen4 Glock or a 1.0 M&P9...
Of course now with Gen5s and 2.0s...things have gotten markedly better. But the HK cognoscenti will smugly note...while Glocks and M&Ps were busily throwing brass at your face and keyholing at 15 yards...those USPs, P2000s, HK45s, and P30s were chugging right along...
Meanwhile the 1911 Boomers are still hanging on, "Two World Wars and two dozen other military actions across the globe. Killin' Nazis and Commies by the buttload!"
A 1911 doesn't kill, it harvests souls.Well...
Except you can be reasonably sure the HK is going to work and put the bullets where you want - where I'm not sure you can reasonably say that about a Gen4 Glock or a 1.0 M&P9...
Of course now with Gen5s and 2.0s...things have gotten markedly better. But the HK cognoscenti will smugly note...while Glocks and M&Ps were busily throwing brass at your face and keyholing at 15 yards...those USPs, P2000s, HK45s, and P30s were chugging right along...
Meanwhile the 1911 Boomers are still hanging on, "Two World Wars and two dozen other military actions across the globe. Killin' Nazis and Commies by the buttload!"
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
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