Rioting ROE

[JodyH]

I have thought long and hard about this exact situation. I've imagined myself in the shoes of this couple. I've contemplated the potential consequences: legal, psychological, and even career.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I would want to get both of my cats in the house.

I'm hanging a "HELP WANTED" sign in the front window...

[FrankinCA]

My thoughts in red.

@Jody, you articulated my feelings exactly. The gate was pushed in, it was/is a private street. Hell, that’s why they live in a gated community. Once that outer layer of security is breached, I think it was reasonable for them to feel scared. I think their muzzle discipline was poor, but hey I wasn’t there and glad no one was hurt.

[the Schwartz]

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws... Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?

Part of my RoE for these turbulent times is obtaining a self-defense insurance policy. Most likely I'll not experience what those folks in St. Louis encountered, but if I have act in defense of me and my own, I'm going to have prepare for when my ''privilege'' is used against me as ''proof'' that I had no right to defend myself and my family.

[Borderland]

Part of my RoE for these turbulent times is obtaining a self-defense insurance policy. Most likely I'll not experience what those folks in St. Louis encountered, but if I have act in defense of me and my own, I'm going to have prepare for when my ''privilege'' is used against me as ''proof'' that I had no right to defend myself and my family.

You do have carry insurance, right? Is self-defense insurance something different?

[the Schwartz]

You do have carry insurance, right? Is self-defense insurance something different?

Yes, sorry for the incorrect terminology as both self-defense insurance and CCW insurance are one-in-the-same in my usage. Got a USCCA Elite policy that seems to be the best fit for my situation.

[Eric_L]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?

I think this is the best post concerning this debacle. Regardless of what you think about the “Lawn Lawyers” or their actions.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

Since the dust-up started a few weeks ago, we've had at least three protests/riots/marches (two that involved serious property damage) pass within one to two blocks of the house. The Portland Police Bureau precinct that was besieged last week is two blocks west and one block south of our front door.

As a result, the wife and I have had long talks about the "what ifs". Our personal ROE is to avoid confrontation unless it becomes absolutely necessary to defend ourselves from serious bodily injury or death. I'm not going to get into a verbal altercation if they're destroying property... even if that property belongs to us (this applies to our cars mostly - the house is a rental). Our "line" is an attempted arson of our home, an attempt to force entry of our home, or an attempt at a violent assault. My wife is pregnant, so a physical assault could have serious consequences for her/the baby's health, and I don't want my ass kicked (or killed) by a mob. If arson, home invasion, or an assault on us is not imminent, I'm staying out of it. I'm not interested in getting doxxed and having my life ruined unless it is absolutely necessary.

We have our family photos, heirlooms, passports, etc. readily accessible if we have to E&E. Long guns and magazines are staged, she has a gun at her desk (she's working from home) and I'm carrying at least an LCP as "Rule #1" gun at all times. When we leave the house, a Glock 19 gets added AIWB.

All that being said, most of the "action" in the city isn't even in our neighborhood, it is taking place downtown at the Justice Center. The protests/marches are made up mostly of "peaceful protesters" with a smaller number of violent agitators thrown into the mix. They seem to be content with vandalizing local businesses, tearing down statues, and attempting a MN-style precinct takeover. They haven't been accosting residents that I know of, and I haven't seen evidence of attempts at arson or break-ins of local homes. Its probably much ado about nothing, but better safe than sorry.

[ffchewy17]

What’s the consensus on bear spray ( counter assault ) for possible crowd control as a first line deterrent ? I’m thinking along the lines of a group of rioters who strayed onto my property and are coming close to the house entrance. Is it a viable alternative to the St Louis incident ? Instead of drawing down on a group of trespassers/looters/rioters with my long gun, using the bear spray ( 10.6 oz can, 40 ft reach, 6-10 second burst) as a Precursor to going to deadly force if needed. I would have preferred to have two cans of Sabre red mk9 , but those are unavailable to purchase for civilians, hence the 4 cans of bear spray.

I want to reiterate that this would be a last resort situation, I’m not looking to go out and confront a group of peaceful protesters just walking by. I would much prefer to stay out of there way, until I have no choice but to defend my home/family.

[jtcarm]

RoyGBiv: nice, but relatively few suburban rooftops have practical access to the roof, or any cover from the roof. Even if you are going full Rooftop Korean, I'd think that requires defending starting some distance out from the structure, with the legal ramifications that entails. If, for legal reasons, you cede the yard, then defending from the rooftop seems like it would also cede access to the first floor, ...

I’d rather go FTF with the mob than try & haul my fat ol ass up on my steep-pitched roof.

BTW, the OP mentioned bear spray. I once saw a rather extended thread on another forum on bear spray vs pepper spray. This included comments by several LEOs. There was no consensus on which was more effective for which scenario, but the upshot was bear & LEO-type pepper spray are not the same.

One comment that stuck in my mind is that a bear spray is intended to repel an animal that one of the most sensitive noses in nature, whereas pepper-spray is intended to disorient or incapacitate Homo sapiens.

I would suggest researching before picking one.

[BehindBlueI's]

What’s the consensus on bear spray ( counter assault ) for possible crowd control as a first line deterrent ?

I'd use something designed to be used on humans, such as: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002368VJ6