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Thread: Rioting ROE

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by whomever View Post
    This is inspired by the Missouri case being discussed in other threads. I'd like to hear the local cognescenti's opinions on what the couple should have done, in that specific or similar situations, from both a legal and tactics POV.

    Non-exhaustive list of discussion points:
    1)Your basic choices are defend the house or E&E out the back door. Any other choices?
    I think so. Recently in Snohomish, WA, there was a protest planned shortly after the ones in Seattle turned into violent riots. The local folks were out on the street armed. One of them spoke to the leaders of the protest and basically said 'You're welcome to protest, but there will be no property destruction, no grafitti, and no littering'. One of the protesters handed him a Black Lives Matter sign. He took it, and everyone marched peacefully and went home.

    It's always a good idea to talk to your neighbors, even if they suck. I think it's particularly important in this situation. You don't want JoeBob spraying rounds from his house into yours. Going to talk to the leaders/instigators will give you a good idea of what might be coming. At any rate, informing them that there will be armed citizens can possibly avoid tension later if they see people with ARs standing about. This isn't always possible of course, these things don't always follow planned routes, but sometimes they do.

    Arson's not just a possibility, it's what's going to happen if things go south. The people that instigate/incite these things train for it. They have incendiary devices ready. They also have window breakers and other fun things made up. They've had a lot of May Days in Seattle to get good at this. Here's a few things I would do.
    1. Have sprinklers going in all parts of your yard. The strong jet kind that go back and forth. Have them wetting your house at the back swing and going about 30 degrees forward on the front swing. People have an odd repulsion to getting wet. Wet houses are harder to burn. It won't stop a determined arson attempt, but if someone else's house is burning it can save yours from drifting embers.
    2. Talk with your neighbors and find out who's ready to defend themselves/what their plan is. You might be willing to run, but what about the 85 year old lady that lives across the street from you and won't leave her 9 cats? Are you going to stand by while her house is broken into and vandalized? Have a plan before you get mad and do something anyways.
    3. Talk with local LE/FD if possible and find out what they are dealing with in your area and if they're going to be able to do anything for you. I don't want to be out there armed with a bunch of stressed, sleep deprived tense cops while they come to that old lady across the streets house, but I don't want to abandon her if there's no help coming for her either.

    I don't have any comments on the legal side of things.

  2. #12
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    Somewhat in jest...." oh crap...my two Rottweilers accidentally got out. Sorry!"

    1. Have a plan upfront for this situation.
    2. Decide where your line in the sand is. What are you comfortable ceding? Meaning, are you willing to get doxxed and whipped into a political frenzy online because someone's toe touched your property line?
    3. Gather valuables and valuable information and have a vehicle ready for exfil.
    4. Call authorities to let them know what is occurring and let them respond. If this is a no go then see #1.
    5. Consider other means of intimidation like large dogs. This seems to work well in european riots.

    (I just put down my ancient Labrador. I wanted to take a pause managing dogs...but reconsidering now.)

  3. #13
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Until I see uninterrupted video from the time the gate was broken up through the crowd moving on it's hard to say what my ROE would be.
    If they broke the gate down and were heading past my home without paying it any attention, I'd bunker down inside and not confront them even if a few of them were trampling my grass and knocked over my lawn jockey.
    If they broke down the gate and then focused their attention on my house, exiting the house to take up a cover/concealment position outside and confronting them as early as possible while the wife does overwatch from inside is a good viable tactic.
    Sheltering in place only works if the mob isn't large enough to surround you. Once the Molotovs start flying your options become extremely limited as in burn to death or exit through a fatal funnel.
    There's no way two people can cover all four sides of a small house, much less a house the size of the one in the news.
    Personally I'll take my chances outside, on foot with freedom of movement and rely on my shooting skill, grasp of tactics, use of cover/concealment and pure aggression.
    Last edited by JodyH; 06-30-2020 at 08:59 AM.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  4. #14
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    My wife would have kept her ass inside. I would have stood in my door with a slung weapon if and only if they were on my property and announcing intention to do harm. Otherwise, I would have remained inside. No pointing. No posturing.
    Wiener dog is almost stone deaf. Wife is selectively hard of hearing and like to remind me by saying "what!?!" a lot. I am hard of hearing and don't really care what happens outside. Odds are we wouldn't have noticed.

    PLUS....I don't live in a FIVE STORY MANSION next to the mayor.

  5. #15
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

    Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

    As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?

    The kewlest and best dressed hamster on the internet appears wise indeed.

  6. #16
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post

    I seriously doubt this would have ended the way it did, had the homeowner not taken up a rifle.
    That's the dichotomy. We'll never know. As it is now, nothing happened, which is the best thing that could've happened - but the media says "here's some rich assholes with guns".

    Now it'd be pretty damn unexpected to see rioters make it all the way to my neck of the woods, and I think local LE would be more on my side than theirs. Nobody comes down my street, and certainly not into my yard, without a reason. So, different setup/rules/optics than living in a metro area.

  7. #17
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    This may go against the flow of the attaboys, but be real. If there were armed protesters and they wanted this couple, they would have lasted - now how long would it take most of us to shoot two targets? Two seconds.

    Whether the marchers had plans to or in the spur of the moment were going after their mansion is an unknown. Did they go after any other houses with no armed folks out front?

    It was said in the other thread, that they faced down armed protesters. I'm sorry, two folks don't face down an armed mob. It is more likely they weren't interested in that house. Yeah, some folks probably yelled crap at them.

    I read they are going on Tucker Carlson - what happened to bit to shut up and talk through your lawyer and only to the law when necessary? That's the usual part of the AAR of your ROE.

  8. #18
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post

    I'm sorry, two folks don't face down an armed mob.
    And yet, that seems to be exactly what happened.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    This may go against the flow of the attaboys, but be real. If there were armed protesters and they wanted this couple, they would have lasted - now how long would it take most of us to shoot two targets? Two seconds.
    You're saying that if an armed mob wanted them they'd have had better odds unarmed?
    Whether the marchers had plans to or in the spur of the moment were going after their mansion is an unknown. Did they go after any other houses with no armed folks out front?
    They were the first house the mob came to. Nothing slows your roll like the first person you meet sticking a rifle in your face. Might have dampened their enthusiasm for mayhem.
    It was said in the other thread, that they faced down armed protesters. I'm sorry, two folks don't face down an armed mob. It is more likely they weren't interested in that house. Yeah, some folks probably yelled crap at them.
    Point of order, the mob approached, saw guns, walked away peacefully. That's about as close as you'll get to a face down and the mob blinking first.
    I read they are going on Tucker Carlson - what happened to bit to shut up and talk through your lawyer and only to the law when necessary? That's the usual part of the AAR of your ROE.
    The two of them are lawyers, and judging by the house and neighborhood, pretty decent ones. Also, when the trial is taking place in the media, your defense better damn well be in the media as well.
    My thoughts in red.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  10. #20
    I have thought long and hard about this exact situation. I've imagined myself in the shoes of this couple. I've contemplated the potential consequences: legal, psychological, and even career.

    At this point, I'm pretty sure I would want to get both of my cats in the house.

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