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Thread: Rioting ROE

  1. #1

    Rioting ROE

    This is inspired by the Missouri case being discussed in other threads. I'd like to hear the local cognescenti's opinions on what the couple should have done, in that specific or similar situations, from both a legal and tactics POV.

    Non-exhaustive list of discussion points:
    1)Your basic choices are defend the house or E&E out the back door. Any other choices?
    2)Legally speaking, in most states you are in the clear if you cede the yard and only defend the interior of the house?
    3)#2 seems like it work well unless arson is in the attacker's toolbox. Any indication of that would severely complicate things. IIRC there was a case in Canada a few years ago where someone opened fire on people throwing molotovs at their house, and it was viewed as not justified. But that is Canada.

    In any event, I'd like to hear 'what would you have done' and any general thoughts on how to prepare for/react to similar situations.

  2. #2
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    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

  3. #3
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    My wife would have kept her ass inside. I would have stood in my door with a slung weapon if and only if they were on my property and announcing intention to do harm. Otherwise, I would have remained inside. No pointing. No posturing.

  4. #4
    RoyGBiv: nice, but relatively few suburban rooftops have practical access to the roof, or any cover from the roof. Even if you are going full Rooftop Korean, I'd think that requires defending starting some distance out from the structure, with the legal ramifications that entails. If, for legal reasons, you cede the yard, then defending from the rooftop seems like it would also cede access to the first floor, ...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomever View Post
    RoyGBiv: nice, but relatively few suburban rooftops have practical access to the roof, or any cover from the roof. Even if you are going full Rooftop Korean, I'd think that requires defending starting some distance out from the structure, with the legal ramifications that entails. If, for legal reasons, you cede the yard, then defending from the rooftop seems like it would also cede access to the first floor, ...
    yes... but... in this case....



    And, FWIW.... I've killed deer from the roof of my double wide.

    And nobody is getting into my locked first floor without taking casualties.
    What would Karens do faced with incoming fire?
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

  6. #6
    "yes... but... in this case...."

    Right. I'm interested more in the general case than this specific case.

  7. #7
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

    Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

    As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #8
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    One thing to notice is every one of those douches have a phone pointed at would be victims. They want to pick clips and throw it out there with a one sided view. So if you live in a probable or highly volatile area, know who YOUR camera man is and where are YOUR security cameras. Get out publicly first and go to friendly sites and post the video, once its out there a judge really cant gag order you.
    ROE
    I can legally meet force with force and if I fear for the safety of my family, I will do what is needed.
    Secure yourself and family with whatever force the law will allow, knowing that if you do give a douche a head canoe, have your ducks in a row.
    Secure the family,
    secure the house and property or E&E to a safe house or rally point. If you do E&E, know they might burn the place up, so take important files, marriage license Passports, birth certificates a computer back up, and money. People forget cash you may need it for gas or lodging.
    Make sure everyone knows the plan and where to go. Rehearse.
    Know your local LEs and support them, they are more likely to stick their neck out for someone they know, or if you live in an area where they are wanting to disband the Police, buy one lunch and tell them thanks.

    I am from an area, that if you fuck around, they drop your body in a mine shaft in Picher, OK.

    Other than that always have a gun on you, you see rifles you better have one and hope your people know how to use what is needed when. Meaning don't give your wife a shotgun when she does not know how to load it.

  9. #9
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

    Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

    As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?
    Also seems like the woman pointing her handgun at the protestors may have been in violation of a law or two, and the photos of this are now an indelible part of public record.

  10. #10
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Below is my post on the other, specific to incident thread. In response to the question posed in this thread, "what the couple should have done, in that specific or similar situations, from both a legal and tactics POV." Reiterating, I am not a lawyer, and am only familiar (kinda) with Florida law, but I don't find much fault with the couple's actions.

    Placing myself in their shoes:

    1) I observed multiple persons destroy a physical barrier and gain access onto my private property

    In FL, I believe this property would count as "curtilage" in the context of trespass, I dunno about MO. Point being, they have now "broken into my house, and are in my living room". This may be a key turning point on this incident - did the protestors have a "right" to be where they were - I say no.

    2) Mob screamed multiple angry credible threats of harm to me, my property and family (proving jeopardy), had multiple visible weapons (proving ability), and outnumbered me, I am older and not mobile (proving opportunity).

    3) I armed myself, and multiple times ordered them to vacate my property and leave. Absent a direct thread requiring a shot, the mob withdrew (eventually) off my property. This is a good result, as far as I am concerned.

    Here's one problem for the couple; absent a threat of death or great bodily harm to me (gun pointed at me, bottle of clear yellow liquid with cloth at the top being lit by a lighter), menacing approach with an impact weapon) I believe I would keep my weapon at low ready, with finger out of the trigger guard. I don't know what MO law is with regard to pointing a gun at someone.

    I seriously doubt this would have ended the way it did, had the homeowner not taken up a rifle.



    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    I AM NOT A LAWYER

    I thought as a homework exercise, I would look up FL law as regards open carry and/or brandishing and/or openly displaying firearms.

    We've got a few sections of Chapter 790:

    790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
    (1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.


    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    Chapter 776 defines Justifiable Use of Force.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0776.013.html

    For deadly force, the key section, 3A is:

    A person who is in a dwelling or residence in which the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and use or threaten to use:

    ...

    (b) Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.


    "Reasonable fear" is defined as:

    The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.


    It seems reasonable to have a conversation with myself as to how I would articulate the above to a judge, after a shooting (did not display weapon threateningly; I had no duty to retreat in my dwelling; and that I used deadly force as necessary to prevent my own or my loved ones death or great bodily harm.) Or as they say, was there Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy for harm. I think if I saw a large armed mob of people busting down my gate and entering my private property armed with weapons, screaming epithets at me, probably qualifies to have a master grip and go to the low ready, at least (or whatever is the equivalent for a long gun, of which I do not know). If, after an enthusiastic "BACK THE FUCK UP", they don't leave, and continue to advance, I'd need to articulate why I raised my gun and made a decision to fire. Same if they held a glass bottle filled with yellow liquid, and proceeded to apply a lighter to a piece of cloth sticking out. I think a reasonable person would conclude doing that, or someone pointing a gun at me, would be a justification for shooting in self-defence.

    The statues also mentions occupied vehicle, so my presumption is everything above applies to me in my car.

    Obviously circumstances might vary, but that's where I come out interpreting things in FL. As an asterisk, I don't see where curtilage is addressed in FL law, so I'm not sure how that plays out for me, or I'm missing it.

    Comments on my thinking welcomed.

    EDIT: I did find Curtilage, in FL law, for burglary and trespass, defined here:

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0810.09.html

    " As used in this section, the term “unenclosed curtilage” means the unenclosed land or grounds, and any outbuildings, that are directly and intimately adjacent to and connected with the dwelling and necessary, convenient, and habitually used in connection with that dwelling."

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