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Thread: The Gracie's Discuss "Should 'Chokeholds' Be Banned"

  1. #31
    On the original topic\Gracie-vid - is there any other option that is generally-issued\easily-taught, that could save an ED victim from their own physiological processes BEFORE they get amped up, beyond the LVNR?

    Clarification: Excited Delirium, not Erectile Dysfunction***
    Jules
    Runcible Works

  2. #32
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    I used carotid holds and to a lesser extent brachial stuns extensively in my job. I am not a big guy and tried to end physical situations quickly before anyone got seriously hurt. A neck restraint was sometimes the great equalizer. But they are banned now by law in my area and using a "chokehold" will get one fired, sued and likely prosecuted. I suspect this will be the story throughout most of the country within the next few years at most. It will not be taught to cops and not allowed. So the utility of the technique is a moot point.

  3. #33
    You know what we call carotid "holds" in BJJ? Chokes
    You know what we call LVNR ("lateral vascular restraints") in BJJ? Chokes



    In the grappling world chokes are for rendering someone unconscious, not restraining or "holding them" in place over minutes. Chokes are sunk and used to end the struggle and are treated as such. It seems logical that redefining a choke as a "restraint" would lead to problem with "restrained" individuals losing consciousness and continuing to be "held".

    If your "restraint" deprives someone's brain of oxygen, it is having an effect beyond mere "restraint" or "hold".




    Grappled competitively for a decade and did other martial arts for 2 more decades (brown belt in BJJ, black belt in Hapkido, black belt in TKD). This thread is the first I've ever heard of a "brachial stun" btw.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    You know what we call carotid "holds" in BJJ? Chokes
    You know what we call LVNR ("lateral vascular restraints") in BJJ? Chokes



    In the grappling world chokes are for rendering someone unconscious, not restraining or "holding them" in place over minutes. Chokes are sunk and used to end the struggle and are treated as such. It seems logical that redefining a choke as a "restraint" would lead to problem with "restrained" individuals losing consciousness and continuing to be "held".

    If your "restraint" deprives someone's brain of oxygen, it is having an effect beyond mere "restraint" or "hold".




    Grappled competitively for a decade and did other martial arts for 2 more decades (brown belt in BJJ, black belt in Hapkido, black belt in TKD). This thread is the first I've ever heard of a "brachial stun" btw.
    Brachial Stun...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhavpBocyow
    A71593

  5. #35
    IS WHAT PLANTS CRAVE BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    I used carotid holds and to a lesser extent brachial stuns extensively in my job. I am not a big guy and tried to end physical situations quickly before anyone got seriously hurt. A neck restraint was sometimes the great equalizer. But they are banned now by law in my area and using a "chokehold" will get one fired, sued and likely prosecuted. I suspect this will be the story throughout most of the country within the next few years at most. It will not be taught to cops and not allowed. So the utility of the technique is a moot point.
    Not banned by law here, but banned by policy. At in-service, the following exchange occurred:

    "So in a situation where it's shoot someone in the head or choke them, I have to shoot them in the head?"

    "Yes."

    I'm sure chokes are dangerous. Bullets are more so. But feels and optics matter so much more today then they ever have before. Maybe 'they' won't riot this time if we just (insert whatever here).
    Important rule change regarding political discussion here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....58#post1151858

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  6. #36
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    Damn...Brachial Stun sure looks like a neck KO to me. Knockouts like that happen in kickboxing and Muay Thai all the time where a dude wraps his leg all the way around some other dudes neck and drops him hard. Reactions from professional athletes with high order conditioning and fighting skills run the gamut from getting unceremoniously dumped to the ground and walking with the ol "concussion shuffle" for the next minute or five, to full blown neurological posturing/fencer's pose.

    Sure, maybe you stun their nerves or something though.

    Not doubting that it works. Certainly any knockout punch would be a fantastic way to gain compliance, but people overestimate the "Hollywood knockout". When Chuck Norris or Jason Bourne punches the bad guy in the face and he's mercifully unconscious for the next hour (or however long the plot needs him to be out). But he will wake up and go home and drink a coffee, re-think his life of crime and start walking with the Lord again.

    The reality of the situation is that if they're not awake by that time, chances are they're dead due to massive brain trauma.

    Actual knockouts are like you see in combat sports. The dude loses equilibrium, drops to the ground, the room is spinning, his limbs seem like they've been turned off and his brain is trying to reconnect the wiring to get the lights back on. He might even still be awake. But shortly, the wires are reconnected and everything's moving again.

    I blame Walker Texas Ranger for this. But certainly I'd recommend a choke then handcuffing the guy when he's out over repeated brain rattling.

  7. #37
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    You know what we call carotid "holds" in BJJ? Chokes
    You know what we call LVNR ("lateral vascular restraints") in BJJ? Chokes

    In the grappling world chokes are for rendering someone unconscious, not restraining or "holding them" in place over minutes. Chokes are sunk and used to end the struggle and are treated as such. It seems logical that redefining a choke as a "restraint" would lead to problem with "restrained" individuals losing consciousness and continuing to be "held".

    If your "restraint" deprives someone's brain of oxygen, it is having an effect beyond mere "restraint" or "hold".

    Grappled competitively for a decade and did other martial arts for 2 more decades (brown belt in BJJ, black belt in Hapkido, black belt in TKD). This thread is the first I've ever heard of a "brachial stun" btw.
    I think you misunderstood my post. Calling pressure to the side of the neck a "choke" does not go over well with the community, city council members or legislators, and is inaccurate. Properly applied, such techniques involve pressure or a blow to the arteries in the neck. That causes someone to feel lightheaded or dizzy so they stop fighting. If maintained for longer, perhaps 10 seconds or so, it can cause brief, painless unconsciousness. Sure, if maintained long enough, it could cause brain damage or death. That is not proper use of the technique. Persons trained in the technique are generally told to call it a "vascular neck restraint" or a "carotid restraint control hold" or similar.

    Pressure or blows to the front of the throat (what most people would think of as "choking," or otherwise interfering with breathing, are forbidden in my world and have been for a long time.

    "Restraint" is a broad term used to describe the process of controlling someone. (Merriam-Webster: a means of restraining : a restraining force or influence) Handcuffs are a form of restraint, as is a seat belt, a taser, a court order, or a verbal threat or command. It does not imply any particular time period or degree of force. Since the video referenced in the OP was whether the "chokehold" (which was then described as a carotid hold) should be banned in law enforcement, I responded in that context; sharing that I found it a valuable tool, but one which is now banned, so it does not matter. FWIW, I would rather be subjected to a vascular restraint than a taser (if it worked as it is supposed to).



    I sense I may have offended or confused you with my response, and if so, I apologize.

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